:::Ceramic Or Semi Metallic Pads?

[NDL]

***

Okay...I don't do brakes on my vehicles; it's not that I never learned, but there are a few things that I am uncomfortable doing (brakes being one of them). So...after reading the articles that 928 posted, the only way that I will eliminate the problem is to check and retorque the wheels myself.

Some years ago, I bought a torque wrench from Harbor Freight, but it sat unused. I've read a lot of different things suggesting that lower priced torque wrenches are often off; they need to be recalibrated every so often, etc

For a guy like myself, who might check his wheels a couple of times per year, what's an economical but highly accurate tool?

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by atikovi
AC Delco Professional ceramic 17D1159CH or Brembo Premium ceramic P10044N.


Thanks for your suggestion, and for looking up my application!

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by NDL
I prefer the ceramic pads as they produce less dust.


That may be true...... but I HATE they way they "feel"... too slippery, or some other difficult to describe feeling

- - - they also CHEWED UP my new rotors.

I'm switching them out - add me to the list of ceramic haters.

 

[t1snwrbrdr12]

It really doesn't have to be highly accurate. It just needs to repeat torque evenly to each lug. Even torque is more important than accurate down to the ft lb.

Originally Posted by NDL
***

Okay...I don't do brakes on my vehicles; it's not that I never learned, but there are a few things that I am uncomfortable doing (brakes being one of them). So...after reading the articles that 928 posted, the only way that I will eliminate the problem is to check and retorque the wheels myself.

Some years ago, I bought a torque wrench from Harbor Freight, but it sat unused. I've read a lot of different things suggesting that lower priced torque wrenches are often off; they need to be recalibrated every so often, etc

For a guy like myself, who might check his wheels a couple of times per year, what's an economical but highly accurate tool?

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by NDL
I prefer the ceramic pads as they produce less dust.


That may be true...... but I HATE they way they "feel"... too slippery, or some other difficult to describe feeling

- - - they also CHEWED UP my new rotors.

I'm switching them out - add me to the list of ceramic haters.


Yes, I do understand what you're saying; they can feel a bit different than semi metallic pads

Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
It really doesn't have to be highly accurate. It just needs to repeat torque evenly to each lug. Even torque is more important than accurate down to the ft lb.

Originally Posted by NDL
***

Okay...I don't do brakes on my vehicles; it's not that I never learned, but there are a few things that I am uncomfortable doing (brakes being one of them). So...after reading the articles that 928 posted, the only way that I will eliminate the problem is to check and retorque the wheels myself.

Some years ago, I bought a torque wrench from Harbor Freight, but it sat unused. I've read a lot of different things suggesting that lower priced torque wrenches are often off; they need to be recalibrated every so often, etc

For a guy like myself, who might check his wheels a couple of times per year, what's an economical but highly accurate tool?



So...pardon my ignorance, but if a shop is given to performing quality repairs, wouldn't a seasoned, conscientious, auto technician, using an air wrench, following a star pattern, suffice in torquing all of the lugs equally?

 

[t1snwrbrdr12]

No because professional grade impact guns are capable of 700-1000 or more foot pounds of torque and even more in reverse. No matter what little blip anyone does, no matter how used to their tools they are, he or she is not going to be consistent impacting wheels on. If a torque stick is used as opposed to just a socket, I've found them to be very very consistent. I'm anal about my maintenance and I trust my torque sticks with air tools. With battery tools I don't though.

 

[HangFire]

Tire shops use "torque sticks" which are supposed to limit impact guns to a selected RANGE of torque. But at best they are not as precise as a torque wrench, and at worst they can be abused and overtorqued, as a certain Goodyear Tire & Auto location so well demonstrated to me.

 

[cronk]

Generally speaking, you would be best to stay with the oe type of friction.
Most passenger cars made in the past 15 years were designed using ceramic pads, and that is what will give the best over all performance and longevity.
Many heavy duty trucks still come oe with semi metallic due to the severe demand placed on the brakes due to heavy weight and towing.
Ceramic and semi metallic work in very different ways, metallic work using friction, ceramic work off adhesion.
The metallic particles dig into the rotor ( on a microscopic level).
Ceramic pads leave a thin coating of material on the rotor that the pads grab onto, think like contact adhesive that you apply to 2 surfaces and they grab ahold of each other. This is why ceramic pads are generally more friendly to the rotors. A proper bed in process ìs important to assure the rotor is evenly coated with ceramic material.
I would install a mid to upper level ceramic pad with new or freshly machined rotors.
Where the pad rides on the caliper bracket must be cleaned of rust to assure the pad can move freely.
As far as brand goes, the Bosch stuff has worked well for me, as has Centric, Reybestos and EBC.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by NDL
So...pardon my ignorance, but if a shop is given to performing quality repairs, wouldn't a seasoned, conscientious, auto technician, using an air wrench, following a star pattern, suffice in torquing all of the lugs equally?

Sort of. With enough practice, most techs can tighten all lug nuts (or bolts) fairly evenly. Using either my air or cordless impact, I can consistently tighten all lug nuts to a point where they all require 1/8-1/16th of a turn before they reach 80 ft-lbs on the torque wrench. Is that good enough to prevent lug nuts from falling off? Yes. Is it good enough to minimize the likelihood of developing excessive rotor runout? I don't know....and that is why I still check with my torque wrench.

 

[HangFire]

My decades of experience of following up on tire shops is, most get it right, but enough do not, and those few can ruin your day if you have a flat. Not to mention, uneven or over-torquing is hard on your brakes.

I have had multiple instances of having to stand on my 30" Snap-On 1/2" drive breaker bar to get lug nuts off, right after new tires. In one case, a Goodyear shop cross-threaded about half of my lug nuts. On the phone the service writer tried to say they use torque sticks so that couldn't happen. I brought in some cross-threaded lugs I had removed from the truck and slapped them down on the desk and asked "explain to me how this didn't happen". They paid for new hardware that I got at the dealer, but I installed it myself.

When checking on lug nuts, keep in mind that a static pull is usually 25-30% higher than a dynamic one... meaning if they put it on at 100 ft-lbs and you take it off later, it may require 125-130 ft-lbs to remove. More if left on for 6 months.

 

[4ever4d]

Ceramic all the way!

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by t1snwrbrdr12
No because professional grade impact guns are capable of 700-1000 or more foot pounds of torque and even more in reverse. No matter what little blip anyone does, no matter how used to their tools they are, he or she is not going to be consistent impacting wheels on. If a torque stick is used as opposed to just a socket, I've found them to be very very consistent. I'm anal about my maintenance and I trust my torque sticks with air tools. With battery tools I don't though.


Appreciate the education; that's something that I never knew.

Originally Posted by HangFire
Tire shops use "torque sticks" which are supposed to limit impact guns to a selected RANGE of torque. But at best they are not as precise as a torque wrench, and at worst they can be abused and overtorqued, as a certain Goodyear Tire & Auto location so well demonstrated to me.


Thanks for your input. Do you have a preference/brand of torque sticks?

Originally Posted by cronk
Generally speaking, you would be best to stay with the oe type of friction.
Most passenger cars made in the past 15 years were designed using ceramic pads, and that is what will give the best over all performance and longevity.
Many heavy duty trucks still come oe with semi metallic due to the severe demand placed on the brakes due to heavy weight and towing.
Ceramic and semi metallic work in very different ways, metallic work using friction, ceramic work off adhesion.
The metallic particles dig into the rotor ( on a microscopic level).
Ceramic pads leave a thin coating of material on the rotor that the pads grab onto, think like contact adhesive that you apply to 2 surfaces and they grab ahold of each other. This is why ceramic pads are generally more friendly to the rotors. A proper bed in process ìs important to assure the rotor is evenly coated with ceramic material.
I would install a mid to upper level ceramic pad with new or freshly machined rotors.
Where the pad rides on the caliper bracket must be cleaned of rust to assure the pad can move freely.
As far as brand goes, the Bosch stuff has worked well for me, as has Centric, Reybestos and EBC.


Your post was very instructive; thanks for writing.

Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by NDL
So...pardon my ignorance, but if a shop is given to performing quality repairs, wouldn't a seasoned, conscientious, auto technician, using an air wrench, following a star pattern, suffice in torquing all of the lugs equally?

Sort of. With enough practice, most techs can tighten all lug nuts (or bolts) fairly evenly. Using either my air or cordless impact, I can consistently tighten all lug nuts to a point where they all require 1/8-1/16th of a turn before they reach 80 ft-lbs on the torque wrench. Is that good enough to prevent lug nuts from falling off? Yes. Is it good enough to minimize the likelihood of developing excessive rotor runout? I don't know....and that is why I still check with my torque wrench.


Appreciate the feedback...thanks

Originally Posted by HangFire
My decades of experience of following up on tire shops is, most get it right, but enough do not, and those few can ruin your day if you have a flat. Not to mention, uneven or over-torquing is hard on your brakes.

I have had multiple instances of having to stand on my 30" Snap-On 1/2" drive breaker bar to get lug nuts off, right after new tires. In one case, a Goodyear shop cross-threaded about half of my lug nuts. On the phone the service writer tried to say they use torque sticks so that couldn't happen. I brought in some cross-threaded lugs I had removed from the truck and slapped them down on the desk and asked "explain to me how this didn't happen". They paid for new hardware that I got at the dealer, but I installed it myself.

When checking on lug nuts, keep in mind that a static pull is usually 25-30% higher than a dynamic one... meaning if they put it on at 100 ft-lbs and you take it off later, it may require 125-130 ft-lbs to remove. More if left on for 6 months.


That's incredible. One reason why I am not a fan of most tire chains.

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by 4ever4d
Ceramic all the way!


Appreciate the feedback

 

[zzyzzx]

If my car originally came with semi-metallic pads, won't I be disappointed of I use ceramic pads?
Only reaon I am asking is because ceramic pads are cheaper and car is a beater.

 

[Cujet]

I can speak from experience, many Chinese ceramic pads are not even in the same league as high quality (premium) semi metallic pads. Not even close. That's a worst to best comparison.

Premium ceramic pads can perform well, but actual fade resistance iunder heavy use is the realm of very high quality semi-met.

If you tow, please don't consider ceramic pads

 

[wander2039]

I put ceramic's on the Escape and Dakota last go around, won't use ceramic's again. The semi-metallic have a better pedal feel than the ceramic's. These vehicles may of been designed for semi's don't know.. I said go with whatever was factory.

 

[t1snwrbrdr12]

I will chime in as well about the ceramic vs semi metallic.

Every brake job since joining this forum I've used akebono pro act. I have been disappointed with the feel vs whatever came off the vehicles due to a lack of bite, in my opinion. Not just hot but even right off the bat, and it continues even after break in. The fact that they are so quiet and have so much less dust keeps me using them, because I'm a mechanic and seen the crap that comes out of parts stores I know they're decent.

The dealer I worked at used oem or junk from Carquest. Oem was always ok. Carquest always squealed at some point or another. Immediately or later down the road.

I worked in a small shop which swore by Napa ultra premium which in almost every application is akebono. No problems with noise ever so I just stick with that.

Vehicles I've noticed a lack of bite in were 2-2003 accords, an 11 sienna, 06 civic, a newer Jetta, and unsure of the rest. Again, not enough of an issue that I couldn't adjust my driving and braking expectations, not like they're anything more than daily driver cars. It was just a noticeable difference in my opinion.

 

[carloz]

I prefer ceramics. Good bite and less dust.