Hallelujah Toyota -- The Spin-Ons are Back!

[JeffKeryk]

I have always wondered why there are so many different filter sizes. Why not, say, 10 (or less)?
And why can't they be mounted vertically to avoid drain back and offer less messy removal? Sheesh!

I have a good Toyota canister removal tool (with the slots).
Only real problem I had was a Corolla that some muscle man screwed back on so tight I was in fear of breaking it upon removal.
I'm telling you it was TIGHT!

 

[ragtoplvr]

The cartridge filter is less solid waste and very little residual oil trapped. The root problem is excessively cost reduced, weight reduced ,complex and or poorly designed housings with poor access.

The old Chevrolet canister used from 56 to 67 was pretty bullet proof BUT all kinds of idiots refused to take an ice pick or small screwdriver and dig the gasket out of the recess. They just crammed a new one in there anyway or left the old one in there. Bad mechanics never even wiped the accumulating sludge out of the bottom of the canister. I actually preferred it over the spin on.

In those days I actually removed 2 gaskets several times and wiped out up to ¼ inch of lead and sludge out of housing.

Right up there with mechanics too lazy or no pride in their work to wipe the grease fitting clean before shooting in fresh grease. Then shooting in so much grease they rupture the boot. There seems to be less pride and work ethic now. Some of that comes from customers searching for the lowest cost and the way employees are treated. Stripped oil pan drain plugs, and cross threaded filters are common now. Some engines have a cast in filter nipple so cross threading is fatal. The change places don't care, they deny it and fire the poorly or not trained worker. They should have their impact guns taken away.

Rod

 

[DGXR]

Cartridge filters are here to stay, and eventually all new vehicles will have them. I don't like this but it is what it is. They need to figure out a good drainage method, fix the gasket/o-ring issues and use a better material... that's all! HAHA

I really like the idea of inspecting the used filter element without cutting anything, including my knuckles.

Originally Posted by ChiTDI
How about a vote for spin on ATF filters and drain bolts as well!
"Reach 190 degrees and check fluid level", come on! I don't think those procedures were accidentally implemented or designed.

Excellent idea!

 

[supton]

Only problem I've had on mine is the tool gets stuck to the plastic housing. Really hasn't bothered me that much otherwise. I do wish they had skipped on the predrain feature and just used a 3/8 drive, that way I wouldn't need a special socket for it.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted by DGXR
Cartridge filters are here to stay, and eventually all new vehicles will have them. I don't like this but it is what it is. They need to figure out a good drainage method, fix the gasket/o-ring issues and use a better material... that's all! HAHA

I really like the idea of inspecting the used filter element without cutting anything, including my knuckles.

Originally Posted by ChiTDI
How about a vote for spin on ATF filters and drain bolts as well!
"Reach 190 degrees and check fluid level", come on! I don't think those procedures were accidentally implemented or designed.

Excellent idea!



LOL you think they are going to get the idea people don't like their anti DIY engineering?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
The cartridge filter is less solid waste and very little residual oil trapped. The root problem is excessively cost reduced, weight reduced ,complex and or poorly designed housings with poor access.

The old Chevrolet canister used from 56 to 67 was pretty bullet proof BUT all kinds of idiots refused to take an ice pick or small screwdriver and dig the gasket out of the recess. They just crammed a new one in there anyway or left the old one in there. Bad mechanics never even wiped the accumulating sludge out of the bottom of the canister. I actually preferred it over the spin on.

In those days I actually removed 2 gaskets several times and wiped out up to ¼ inch of lead and sludge out of housing.

Right up there with mechanics too lazy or no pride in their work to wipe the grease fitting clean before shooting in fresh grease. Then shooting in so much grease they rupture the boot. There seems to be less pride and work ethic now. Some of that comes from customers searching for the lowest cost and the way employees are treated. Stripped oil pan drain plugs, and cross threaded filters are common now. Some engines have a cast in filter nipple so cross threading is fatal. The change places don't care, they deny it and fire the poorly or not trained worker. They should have their impact guns taken away.

Rod



About 1970 I worked in a Chevron station as a gas jock and VERY low end wrench. The post about the multiple rubber gaskets in the 1967 Chevys is so true. We kept a small cheapo screwdriver in our shirt pocket to remove the gasket(s) from the groove. We also kept a good supply of re-thread oil plugs as cross threading was fairly common, especially in the older cars.
I loved that job.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
... LOL you think they are going to get the idea people don't like their anti DIY engineering?
Cartridges are not "anti-DIY engineering." Putting the oil filter on the bottom of the engine, over a hard-to-open, fragile access cover IS anti-DIY, whether it's cartridge or spin-on type.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
... LOL you think they are going to get the idea people don't like their anti DIY engineering?
Cartridges are not "anti-DIY engineering." Putting the oil filter on the bottom of the engine, over a hard-to-open, fragile access cover IS anti-DIY, whether it's cartridge or spin-on type.


I think his comment was about checking the ATF level because of the special procedure to do so on a lot of modern automatics. My 2005 Tacoma is that way ... a royal pain to check the transmission fluid level.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
... LOL you think they are going to get the idea people don't like their anti DIY engineering?
Cartridges are not "anti-DIY engineering." Putting the oil filter on the bottom of the engine, over a hard-to-open, fragile access cover IS anti-DIY, whether it's cartridge or spin-on type.


I think his comment was about checking the ATF level because of the special procedure to do so on a lot of modern automatics. My 2005 Tacoma is that way ... a royal pain to check the transmission fluid level.


Yes it was but they do it every chance they get.

 

[Job]

Mazda is making some Toyota engines, and cars. Maybe they are having some input. Most people today don't DIY on oil changes, seems to me. I am the only one I know left, and I just had a GM dealer oil change. It was free for me, but the price is $50 for the oil change up to six qts,, filter, tire rotation, resetting the TPS system, multi point inspection, and exterior wash. Delco full synthetic too. The Toyota techs may have had some input, but for them it probably made little difference can or cartridge. The clock is on the wall counting toward go home one type filter or the other.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Mazda is making some Toyota engines, and cars. Maybe they are having some input. Most people today don't DIY on oil changes, seems to me. I am the only one I know left, and I just had a GM dealer oil change. It was free for me, but the price is $50 for the oil change up to six qts,, filter, tire rotation, resetting the TPS system, multi point inspection, and exterior wash. Delco full synthetic too. The Toyota techs may have had some input, but for them it probably made little difference can or cartridge. The clock is on the wall counting toward go home one type filter or the other.



Not only that it would just a lot more in cost effective if they cut way back and instead of having hundreds of different filters they settle on a half dozen to fit all cars and trucks.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
... it would just a lot more in cost effective if they cut way back and instead of having hundreds of different filters they settle on a half dozen to fit all cars and trucks. ...
I tend to agree on that point. It used to be that about 5 sizes fit most US-made vehicles (excluding large diesels), and a similar or smaller number fit most Japanese ones. The same goes for air filters.

 

[JC1]

Originally Posted by JHZR2
Cartridges are great when done upright and accessible from the top of the engine with a cap removal.

Underneath, or overly complex designs are just plain unfortunate.


+1, I totally agree.

 

[JC1]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I'd be pleasantly surprised too. While I like the cartridge filter and its location on my 2016 Wrangler, it is a weak link in the oil system imo. Lots of problems with the housing cracking in the 2014's and older. I can't help but think my model year is not exempt. I'd rather have a spin on filter too.

I read about many of the Penstar V-6's having leaking issues with the cartridge filter housing. My 2015 Jeep has the 5.7 HEMI, and I am thankful it has a spin on oil filter as well.


I think that cracking is from people over tightening the housing. One more reason to avoid quick lubes and do it yourself.

 

[ekpolk]

Reviewing the responses, it seems there are, broadly, two issues here. They could go by other names, but IMO, Safety and Convenience are serviceable labels.

As for Safety, generally, the cartridges offer more paths to catastrophe. Our Avalon is a perfect example. You have to open and reclose the main filter compartment, be sure to properly place the finicky o-ring, making sure it stays in place during install, AND you're supposed to tighten to a specific torque. And then there's the absurd "pre-drain" feature, which is just another opening with yet another o-ring that has to be properly placed. Just another possible failure point, IMO. With the spin-on, the single seal installs "automatically" as you spin the filter on. And its "guts" are pre-installed in the right places. You can probably tell I don't like cartridges... 🙄...œ

As for Convenience, everything I just said, vs "spin off then on..." Of course, a cartridge set up on TOP of the engine is probably as convenient as anything else.

My conclusion: assuming reasonable placement, the Spin-On is a clear winner.

BUT, Spin-Ons aren't perfect either, and here's my single datum point in that direction: As a kid, we were leaving on a road trip in Dad's '73 Dodge Dart. We literally left from the oil change shop. A mile or so later we got sudden smoke, stench and an OP warning light! The old Spin-On filter's seal had stuck to the flange, and the tech didn't notice! The resulting "double seal" didn't last long! They towed us back for free, fixed it, and all was good. 40+ years later, I still carefully check for that when I do a change. ...³ I hope nobody drove a motorcycle over that stretch of road for a while......³...³

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
As for Safety, generally, the cartridges offer more paths to catastrophe. Our Avalon is a perfect example. You have to open and reclose the main filter compartment, be sure to properly place the finicky o-ring, making sure it stays in place during install, AND you're supposed to tighten to a specific torque. And then there's the absurd "pre-drain" feature, which is just another opening with yet another o-ring that has to be properly placed. Just another possible failure point, IMO.


FWIW I've never changed the o-ring on the pre-drain thing. I've never used the pre-drain feature (maybe I should change the o-ring, it's getting old now) (I do change the big o-ring on the housing!). I just drop the cannister and deal with the oil--I remember filters dumping oil as a kid, so it's no biggie to me.

I don't torque the cannister either. I just tighten until I feel it seat. It is not going to back out on its own, not with all the drag from the o-ring. Once it seats, it's done. No need to gorilla it on.

I've thought about taking the pre-drain plug out, putting on locktite, and then reinstalling. That way I could just use a 3/8 drive to change the filter. Haven't done that--yet.

 

[ekpolk]

Supton -- right with you on all that. I've changed oil on that car fewer than a dozen times (it's an 07 that just hit 70k miles!), and after the first time, I've actually tq-ed only a couple times -- essentially for grins. With all that threading, it ain't coming out unless something really special is happening. Still, we are SUPPOSED to do it whereas with spinners, it's just "tighten 3/4ths of a turn."

Just for fun, you should try the pre-drain once. Toyota furnishes a cute little plastic spout with their filters you plug in under the removed predrain cap. Attach your own hose to it BEFORE you plug it in. All that fuss -- and it's just another way to make a mess...

Incidentally, seeing you're from "New Hampsha", I'd add that I grew up there (Durham) and that's where the 73 Dart episode happened. How long will a mistaken double seal last? From gasoline alley on the east side of Durham, to the beginning of US-4 past UNH on the west. ...🙄