Elon Musk is running out of rich people...

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Tesla warns on Q4 profit, cutting jobs to pull down Model 3 price, 7% of workforce being cut. I think he is running out of rich people and people that cannot do simple math....
 
Originally Posted by philipp10
Tesla warns on Q4 profit, cutting jobs to pull down Model 3 price, 7% of workforce being cut. I think he is running out of rich people and people that cannot do simple math....


Maybe he needs to team up with Apple and give away 2 free iPhones with each new Tesla purchase. Lol

The Ontario government cut the rebates and I think it killed Tesla's business up here. Cheap gas doesn't help either.
 
And still early in the long term investment side of manufacturing and other …
I just saw a new Tesla charging station in this restaurant area … yes, not in the low rent district …
(Only guy plugged in was not eating … in car on the phone) …
 
The Tesla needs a lot of improvement. You see them going down the interstate at 65 when the speed limit is 80mph. When you pay$60,000 for a $30,000 car it's just not worth it. I think when they get the batteries perfected it might be the way to go. Plus, when Honda and Toyota come out with something it will more than likely be better and less expensive as well as run Tesla out of business. It's very difficult to keep up with these car companies and with Ford and GM changing things its hard to happen what will happen down the road. I probably would feel a little nervous owning a bunch of Tesla stock.
 
The Tesla dealer up the street from me is usually empty. I occasionally see a few cars in the lot. Is he trying to expand in China? I thought I saw something about that. EV's will likely survive in small markets initially.
 
The people who think electric cars are "green" are just kidding themselves about the eco-friendliness of electric vehicles. Somewhere north of 70% of all electricity in the US is still "fossil" fuel... with almost 20% nuclear. Renewables make up less than 15% of the total output, and hydro and wind are nearly 70% of that slice. The energy density of hydrocarbons is just too great to ever be completely replaced.

I still don't understand why there hasn't been more work on very small turbodiesels to drive a generator in the electric cars when it needs additional top-ups; why stick to gasoline engines on the hybrids? If you're going to do it, go all electric drivetrain with the diesel just to run the generator, and design it so the diesel is always run at its most efficient steady-state RPM when needed to charge. Then when you get home for the night, plug it in if you need to top it off. Actually, the best way would be to have an option to have an inductive mat or something on the floor of your garage and it charges when you park over it. Still have to keep a regular plug for those without garages.
 
Originally Posted by joekingcorvette
You see them going down the interstate at 65 when the speed limit is 80mph. [ (insert) or the traffic is moving at 80..... ]


Electric cars consume battery power rapidly on the highway. So it's not unusual for EV drivers on a trip to go slow, in an attempt at avoiding a time consuming charge. Sometimes, a trip is faster when you go slow in an EV.

The Chevy Volt is the only car that can do both EV and Gas exclusively.
10c per mile on battery power alone.
5.3c per mile with a dead battery, using gasoline alone.
Tell me again, where the benefit is?


Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
The people who think electric cars are "green" are just kidding themselves about the eco-friendliness of electric vehicles. Somewhere north of 70% of all electricity in the US is still "fossil" fuel... with almost 20% nuclear.


Bottom line: A average American powerplant consumes 1.6 gallons of fuel oil (or equiv in other fuels) to power an average EV 40 miles, for 25MPG in energy consumption! NOTE: US powerplants are significantly more efficient than the worldwide average.

Let's stop the lies about efficiency and concentrate on unnecessary energy use. We won't see any real benefits otherwise.
 
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo

I still don't understand why there hasn't been more work on very small turbodiesels to drive a generator in the electric cars when it needs additional top-ups; why stick to gasoline engines on the hybrids? If you're going to do it, go all electric drivetrain with the diesel just to run the generator, and design it so the diesel is always run at its most efficient steady-state RPM when needed to charge. Then when you get home for the night, plug it in if you need to top it off.

The small turbo diesel would have the following challenges:
Cost - Extended battery package plus a diesel would make it dead in the water before you start
Weight
Packaging
NVH concerns
Tough emissions regs
Different and more complicated maintenance than gas
Misfuelling - yes, that is reality, ask me how I know
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo

I still don't understand why there hasn't been more work on very small turbodiesels to drive a generator in the electric cars when it needs additional top-ups; why stick to gasoline engines on the hybrids?


The Toyota Prius engine is now 41% thermally efficient over a fairly wide range. That matches the very best modern small diesels, which narrowly "peak" at 42% TE but only average about 35%. Diesel particulate filters consume some fuel for maintenance, driving the number down to about 35% ave TE.

Remember, diesel fuel contains more energy per gallon, D=139K BTU vs G=114 BTU, so more MPG is expected, when efficiency numbers match.

The bottom line is that well designed gasoline hybrids consume less "ENERGY" per mile than any other currently available technology.

An emissions compliant, well engineered diesel hybrid would return better MPG, but not necessarily lower energy use, due to the above mentioned energy content per gal.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Cujet


Bottom line: A average American powerplant consumes 1.6 gallons of fuel oil (or equiv in other fuels) to power an average EV 40 miles, for 25MPG in energy consumption! NOTE: US powerplants are significantly more efficient than the worldwide average.

Let's stop the lies about efficiency and concentrate on unnecessary energy use. We won't see any real benefits otherwise.



You are saying that it takes 1.6 gallons of fuel oil to generate 10KWH? I did not know that.
 
Not that I know if it would do the necessary work (because I don't have the time or inclination) but a while back in Diesel Power they had a Kohler 1.0L diesel that made like 24HP and only weighed 187 pounds. I'll admit I am just spitballing here, but this should be enough HP to supply about 10kW continuous, and be plenty to maintain the batteries. It meets Tier 4 emissions compliance, and is supposedly very quiet and smooth. Maybe I've got a pipe dream here, but it makes sense in my head.
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Not that I know if it would do the necessary work (because I don't have the time or inclination) but a while back in Diesel Power they had a Kohler 1.0L diesel that made like 24HP and only weighed 187 pounds. I'll admit I am just spitballing here, but this should be enough HP to supply about 10kW continuous, and be plenty to maintain the batteries. It meets Tier 4 emissions compliance, and is supposedly very quiet and smooth. Maybe I've got a pipe dream here, but it makes sense in my head.

Hammerhead Eagle I-Thrust?
 
It's -21°F here as I post this, (9:45 a.m.) with the low tonight forecast to drop to -26°F - not windchill temperatures.

I still want to know how long a Tesla or any other electric would remain mobile after a full charge in those temperatures, even with the heater and everything else that can be turned off turned off, with the driver and passengers cocooned in hooded parkas, ear muffs, mitts and mukluks. Surprise, surprise: Internet searches turn up nothing but crickets.

Welcome to 1910.
 
Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways
It's -21°F here as I post this, (9:45 a.m.) with the low tonight forecast to drop to -26°F - not windchill temperatures.

I still want to know how long a Tesla or any other electric would remain mobile after a full charge in those temperatures, even with the heater and everything else that can be turned off turned off, with the driver and passengers cocooned in hooded parkas, ear muffs, mitts and mukluks. Surprise, surprise: Internet searches turn up nothing but crickets.

Best estimate, looking at the twitter and reddit comments from Tesla owners, maybe 50% of rated range at those temps.

A couple of interesting tidbits re: the Model 3.
It doesn't have dedicated battery pack heaters, the motor coolant is used to heat the batteries, which could take forever in really cold weather. Probably a cost cutting move vs Model S and X.
Important because unless the batteries are warm, the charge rate is cut to 25% or worse. In cold weather the common fix is to drive for an hour to warm up the system before rapid charging...like really????
Regen is cut to 5% in cold temps, which really kills range.
Some have started to show no starts, no life, like the circuits are all dead, gee, almost like an ICE at cold temps. But you can't boost a Tesla to get it going.
Multiple reports of door handles freezing and filler flap either freezing, or can't unhook charger.

PS You were being generous in your scenario, you would need heaters on max heat, the windshield and side glass would fog up. Which I'm sure you know.
And... Going to -30C or -22F tonight here, without wind chill.
 
Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways
It's -21°F here as I post this, (9:45 a.m.) with the low tonight forecast to drop to -26°F - not windchill temperatures.

I still want to know how long a Tesla or any other electric would remain mobile after a full charge in those temperatures, even with the heater and everything else that can be turned off turned off, with the driver and passengers cocooned in hooded parkas, ear muffs, mitts and mukluks. Surprise, surprise: Internet searches turn up nothing but crickets.

Welcome to 1910.



I think the key would center around the fact that the car can't be charged in freezing weather but can be charged in a cold garage with results that are likely closer to charging in 10C temperatures. To the degree that it's preheated would probably dictate how much the range would deviate. The Range Mode function on the Tesla limits the heaters which would help but it doesn't take very long for things to get up to temperature so I'm not sure extreme cold weather specifically dictates the range as much as the environment where the car is stored/charged and the kind of trips involved.

I'm sure driving a short distance and having the car turned off for a few hours then rinse and repeat in those temps would impact it considerably more than driving an hour and restarting 20 minutes later would...or commuting 10 miles and being parked in a warm garage all day..but I'm not sure they could give you approximations of the differences between the two based on where it was charged, how long it's been driven, different pre-heating levels, etc. I would think that Tesla could give you a range but it would probably be broad and who knows how applicable to your circumstance.
 
Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways
It's -21°F here as I post this, (9:45 a.m.) with the low tonight forecast to drop to -26°F - not windchill temperatures.

I still want to know how long a Tesla or any other electric would remain mobile after a full charge in those temperatures, even with the heater and everything else that can be turned off turned off, with the driver and passengers cocooned in hooded parkas, ear muffs, mitts and mukluks. Surprise, surprise: Internet searches turn up nothing but crickets.

Welcome to 1910.




A Prius would be useless and drink gas at the rate of an H2 in a effort to warm up in those conditions. But, I've seen cabbies in Chicago drive them in those conditions.
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Not that I know if it would do the necessary work (because I don't have the time or inclination) but a while back in Diesel Power they had a Kohler 1.0L diesel that made like 24HP and only weighed 187 pounds. I'll admit I am just spitballing here, but this should be enough HP to supply about 10kW continuous, and be plenty to maintain the batteries. It meets Tier 4 emissions compliance, and is supposedly very quiet and smooth. Maybe I've got a pipe dream here, but it makes sense in my head.

Buses are now using a similiar system - BAE Systems HybriDrive, which was originally developed by Lockheed Martin and the NLA ISE ThunderVolt system using Siemens motors and Maxwell super capacitors. Both are serial hybrid systems and allowed a 40-60 foot bus to be driven by a Cummins ISB 5.9/6.7L(like a Dodge Ram HD) or a Ford Triton V10 instead of the usual 8-11L class diesel I6. Both are very smooth and quiet, but the ISE system was plagued by fires and electronics going out.

The Allison bus hybrid system works very much like a big Prius(and the batteries on the roof of the bus are essentially Prius batteries wired in series - http://www.vta.org/News-and-Media/Connect-with-VTA/Reenergizing-HybridDiesel-Buses-the-VTA-Way#). Around here, the BAE system rules and it's a step closer to full electrification.
 
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
The people who think electric cars are "green" are just kidding themselves about the eco-friendliness of electric vehicles. Somewhere north of 70% of all electricity in the US is still "fossil" fuel... with almost 20% nuclear. Renewables make up less than 15% of the total output, and hydro and wind are nearly 70% of that slice. The energy density of hydrocarbons is just too great to ever be completely replaced.

I still don't understand why there hasn't been more work on very small turbodiesels to drive a generator in the electric cars when it needs additional top-ups; why stick to gasoline engines on the hybrids? If you're going to do it, go all electric drivetrain with the diesel just to run the generator, and design it so the diesel is always run at its most efficient steady-state RPM when needed to charge. Then when you get home for the night, plug it in if you need to top it off. Actually, the best way would be to have an option to have an inductive mat or something on the floor of your garage and it charges when you park over it. Still have to keep a regular plug for those without garages.



I have a coworker who bought a Nissan Leaf and now all he talks about is how great they are, despite forgetting to plug it in at night and having to plug into some charger and then walk the couple miles to work. He also talks about how he runs with almost no heater due to trying to get as much range as possible. He even went so far as to ask the building management of the building we work in to plug into an outlet in the parking garage and got told now, they ended up installing a Tesla charger which does not work with his Leaf. He of course things there needs to be a dedicated spot for electric vehicles as well.
 
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