Suspicion of a bad Engine Ground

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Ifixyawata

Ifixyawata

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Sep 14, 2015
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863
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NE Ohio
Howdy all,

This just came up and I haven't had a lot of time to really do too much diagnosis, and it's cold and dark out.

This is regarding the Focus in my signature.

I was sitting in the Burger King drive thru waiting for my order and the car stalled out entirely after the idle slowly dropping. I have an (also suspected) sticky IAC so the low/poor idle is something I have grown used to and it's never died entirely before. To my horror, the car wouldn't re-start, only clicking and flashing lights. I managed to get the car pushed out away from the drive thru window and bump-started it and all was well until I started accelerating up a slight grade and it bucked and flashed lights under a load. Stalled again. After this I was able to reverse roll bump start it (I'm proud that I was able to pull this off) and then I was able to get it into a parking lot about a mile (and uphill) from my house.

I walked home, got the Mountaineer and a multitester. I drove back to the car, tested the battery (showed about 13v), tried to start it and still got clicks. I put the jumper cables on, the car started and ran perfectly fine until I pulled the ground side of the jumper cables off. The car sputtered and died the same way it did in the drive through. I ended up rolling the car down the street to my house. It exhibited the same behavior after a few minutes on the battery charger. It started and ran fine from the batter charger and actually ran for a minute or two before sputtering and dying yet again. Battery again tested at 13v or so but would not start.

I feel like based on my limited testing and diagnosis it points to a bad engine ground. Anyone have another direction to point me in?
 
Cool you are diagnosing it instead of throwing parts at it. Just a guess from experience, but a dead cell in a battery causes all sorts of issues even if the voltage shows strong.
 
Did you check the negative ground and positive battery terminal connections?

Are cables to the starter motor solenoid tight?
 
Assuming your battery connections are good, the battery can hold a full charge and the battery passes a load test, then I would think it's an intermittent or weak alternator issue. It's dying when the battery is depleted or a low state of charge and it can't handle the normal idle load of the vehicle.

When you connect a charger or another car to it and it runs fine would seem to point to the battery/battery connections or alternator because that is what you are eliminating when external cables with supply are attached.
 
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Your looking in the right direction alright! If the battery terminals look good, trace down, unbolt the radiator core support ground and clean with baking soda and water and a toothbrush. Its the easiest one to get at, and takes the most weather abuse. Try and start car after cleaning that one ground, if not work, move on to block ground, then firewall ground.

edit; if that does not work, I would remove battery, and alternator, take to parts house and have them tested. Nip it in the bud! Don't mess around...
 
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Originally Posted by 147_Grain
Did you check the negative ground and positive battery terminal connections?

Are cables to the starter motor solenoid tight?


The battery terminal to post connections are clean and tight. I can't see/get under to check the starter side of it tonight but I am suspecting something awry in that area.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Assuming your battery connections are good, the battery can hold a full charge and the battery passes a load test, then I would think it's an intermittent or weak alternator issue. It's dying when the battery is depleted or a low state of charge and it can't handle the normal idle load of the vehicle.

When you connect a charger or another car to it and it runs fine would seem to point to the battery/battery connections or alternator because that is what you are eliminating when external cables with supply are attached.


I'm hoping it's not the alternator, they're supposed to be a PITA to replace on this car.

Originally Posted by c502cid
Cool you are diagnosing it instead of throwing parts at it. Just a guess from experience, but a dead cell in a battery causes all sorts of issues even if the voltage shows strong.


I've spent too much time and money throwing parts in my younger days. I'd be glad if it was as simple as a bad battery. I do know that the battery does not hold a charge well over the weekend, especially when it's cold outside.
 
Fully charge the battery, start and let it run for a few minutes and then turn on every accessory you can and see what happens to the voltage. If it starts dropping like a fly or the car dies it's a good indication that the alternator is toast. (assuming the battery was tested and fully charged before hand)
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Fully charge the battery, start and let it run for a few minutes and then turn on every accessory you can and see what happens to the voltage. If it starts dropping like a fly or the car dies it's a good indication that the alternator is toast. (assuming the battery was tested and fully charged before hand)


I have the car charging right now on a 10A charge. I will try what you describe and report back.
 
A 10 amp charger setting does not necessarily mean the battery is accepting 10 amps, and your 13v reading after your walk to and fro makes me suspect the battery is not the issue.

The battery accepts as much amperage as it wants, upto the chargers maximum or chosen setting, at the voltage that is reaching the battery terminals.

So you could have it on the 10 amps setting, and it might be accepting 10 amps, and the voltage ight still be well under 14.4v, and this would indicate a well discharged battery.

You could have it on the 10 smp setting, and the battery might only be accepting 0.4 amps at 14.4v, and this would indicate a nearly fully charged battery, how low the amperage goes at higher voltages at higher states of charge depends on teh battery itself, size, temperature, phase of the moon, ect
smile.gif


In NE Ohio, January, I'd have the battery in a warmer spot on the charger, as a cold well discharged battery requires it be held at significantly higher voltage to reach/approach full charge in a reasonable time.

I'd be cleaning the battery posts and the interior of th epost clamps.

Any white or green corrosion wicking up the insulation is a red flag that the cables are issue, now or soon inmpending.

I'd follow all wires from battery negative _ terminal to engine block and firewall. Remove them, clean then, retighten them. Don't just look and wiggle and declare them just fine. If it is really difficult to get to them at least loosen and wiggle and retighten, at the minimum.

Once these are done if the problem persists, then at least these have been eliminated as culprits, and could prevent future issues.

Regarding the battery, knowing how many amps the battery is accepting at the voltage reaching the battery terminals is extremely informative as to the battery state fo charge, Voltage readings alone can be extremely misleading.
 
Sounds like a open cell in the battery. Will show voltage but won't hold under a load. Put the meter on it and have somebody hit the key. I'll bet the meter goes down to almost no volts.
 
We had several Fords with 'Ground problems' We could start them just by adding a single jumper cable from the battery ground to a good frame ground. IIRC Ford tends to use smaller cables for both positive and ground, but the issue seems to always show as a bad ground.
 
Put voltmeter on the battery posts (not the terminals). Have someone turn the key to start. If voltage collapses, battery is bad. Measuring the voltage not under load doesn't prove much.

If voltage stays up at the battery, measure from engine block to battery minus post again while trying to start. It should be near zero volts. If it jumps up to volts, ground wire, terminal, or connection is bad. Repeat this test on the plus side of the circuit.
 
After a long period of low amp charging I took the car off of the battery charger. We had a couple places to go (I'm dealing with a failing furnace blower fan at the moment also) and when we got back I tested the batter (on the posts) and it showed something crazy like 14.7v. I started the car, it started and ran fine. No accessories running the car showed around 13.9v. As I turned on more and more accessories it dropped to no lower than 12.9v. I let the car run and it didn't sputter or stall once. I shut it down and attempted to start it immediately after and it cranked slowly and wouldn't start at all. Battery tested at 14.5-ish again. I put a load tester on it and when I flipped the switch it dropped down to 8 and then 7v.

I've taken the battery out and I'm going to get it tested shortly. I'm pretty sure it's bad as it will lose a charge after sitting for any length of time (a couple days) and the date sticker tells me it's nearly 7 years old.
 
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
This is why I always begin with a load test as the first move. I would lay down good money that a bad battery outnumbers any other cause of no-start by 1000:1.


I hope this is really the whole of the problem. I don't think I've ever had a car stall out/stop running because of a bad battery, though.
 
Originally Posted by Ifixyawata

I hope this is really the whole of the problem. I don't think I've ever had a car stall out/stop running because of a bad battery, though.

Cars with non-self-exciting alternators will indeed not run with a bad or disconnected battery. That would describe my Dakota.

My wife drove our Pilot home with a completely disconnected Positive terminal. (It corroded to nothing under the cable sheath, escaping my inspections until failure.) It has a self-exciting alternator.

Not sure which your Ford has.
 
Depends on the vehicle. When my Rams have one bad battery out of the two they have, one can expect all lights to flash like an ambulance, bucking and shaking from the engine, numerous faults, and yes, stalling.

Vehicles that have a "Smarty box", "TIPM", or other such nonsense electrical management are most vulnerable. Remember how these things work. They detect a problem, and they just shut things off. Lights, functions, operations. Problem? Just kill it.
 
I took the battery in, had it tested, it showed about 200 CCA (rated 590) at a 92% charge.

I replaced the battery with a new one and added 2 new 4ga ground cables, one to the engine and one to the body. Also replaced the cable terminals. No issues so far aside from the battery light randomy coming on last night when I was warming the car up to clean the ice and snow off of it. I will watch for a battery light but it seems to crank over faster than it ever had before.
 
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