tightening torque for wheel lugs

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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Shannow
hmmm, nothing blew up and no lawsuits...the new BITOG gold standard of doing things.

And why do engineers have liability insurance?


What's that got to do with anything ?

"Look over there, a bunny !!!"
 
Ok, Shannow I could follow up to Frictionless clamping at 40T.
With 0.0001 meter square area,
Tensile stress = 40T force / 0.0001 meter square area will yield a tensile stress of 4000 MPa.
Typical ultimate tensile strength of a metric 8.8 bolt is 800 MPa.
What gives ?
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Bolts-Basics.jpg
 
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Instead of arriving clamping force of 40T by multiplying 1.6T tangential force with a factor of 25, probably 1.6T should be divided by 25 resulting in 0.064T ?
 
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Originally Posted by Number_35
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by MasterSolenoid
Originally Posted by Pelican

Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.


Ou r Tuscon spec is exactly 65-79 ft.lbs in the owner's manual! Same as your kia.
I Try not to go over 73-75 but tire shops do it at 80 and won't listen to what you have to say. One of them said that's what their books show and legally they have to torque it to 80. Not a problem just 1 over 79.
147 is not a good idea!
This is interesting. I'm wondering about the European torque specs for the Kia. 80 N-m = 59 ft-lbs, and 107 N-m = 79 ft-lbs. That sounds a bit on the low side. I wonder if these are small wheels - perhaps 14 or 15"?

The range for our Mazda 5 (16" wheels) is 65 - 87 ft-lbs. I tighten them to 80 ft-lbs.

I go in 20 ft-lb increments - that is, 20, 40, 60, and 80 ft-lbs. I check them after about 100 km, but have never found them to come loose after being tightened with this method.

I have had the lug nuts on alloy wheels loosen up when I went by feel rather than using a torque wrench.

As others have mentioned, torquing them tighter than spec can warp the rotors and/or stretch the studs, as well as making the nuts impossible to remove with the tire changing tools in the trunk.



Our Tuscon has 18" wheels spaced for 65-79 ft-lbs.

I assume you go 20,40,60,80 without driving! Never done that. does that produce better results than going straight to 80?
I should read this thread from the beginning .... lol
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Intetesting! I recall reading somewhere that if you lube or add anti seize lubricants to the studs, you will have to torque it %15-20 higher because of the lubrication. it made sense to me on the surface. Maybe there is more to it.
Maybe for the trucks, they specify a higher torque due to lubrication ... idk


Nope, wrong way.

lubricating threads REDUCES the torque needed to get the stud stretch to provide the proper clamping force.


Good to know
grin2.gif

I always went by the spec and never added lube or anti seize even though I read truckers do it ...

Do you think it's a good idea? I've never seen the tire shops do it either so I never bothered researching.
 
Originally Posted by zeng
Instead of arriving clamping force of 40T by multiplying 1.6T tangential force with a factor of 25, probably 1.6T should be divided by 25 resulting in 0.064T ?


No, it's multiplied, same as rolling a load up a ramp, or putting in a wedge.

Yes, your math is right, I messed that up...no mistake about that, your numbers are right.

As I put in the disclaimers, I did nothing about the friction between the nut and the bearing surface on the wheel...which is soaking up the majority of the torque...probably an order of magnitude more torque than actually makes it to the thread...notice how it gets exponentially tighter as you tighten ?


Was going to mess with it later...but googled it instead.

http://www.pcb.com/Contentstore/mktgcontent/WhitePapers/WPL_21_Fund_Torque-Tension.pdf

10% wasn't a bad guess...
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Good to know
grin2.gif

I always went by the spec and never added lube or anti seize even though I read truckers do it ...

Do you think it's a good idea? I've never seen the tire shops do it either so I never bothered researching.


I put a tiny film on the thread, and rub most of it off...never the seat area.

Look at the link in the above post, and you can see that EITHER the thread or the under head are makes about a 25% difference in stretch...doing both nearly doubles the stretch (and stress on the bolt)
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Good to know
grin2.gif

I always went by the spec and never added lube or anti seize even though I read truckers do it ...

Do you think it's a good idea? I've never seen the tire shops do it either so I never bothered researching.


I put a tiny film on the thread, and rub most of it off...never the seat area.

Look at the link in the above post, and you can see that EITHER the thread or the under head are makes about a 25% difference in stretch...doing both nearly doubles the stretch (and stress on the bolt)


Haven't had a chance to check the link and it may answer my question but do you make any torque adjustments if you had to torque it with or without the film.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I'd be interested to hear if Clinebarger torques wheels


I do....Everytime!!

I've managed a few shops during my career.....It's one of the hardest things to get technicians to do if they're already used to doing it with an Impact. Heard every excuse imaginable. The most popular being "I don't know the torque spec".....So I started printing the spec on the work orders.

In the environment I work in.....If you have the wheel off, You're most likely doing a repair that requires the use of a torque wrench anyway!
 
The way I do it:

I'm about 150lb, and my tire iron is about 1' long. So I step on it gently until about half my weight is on each foot, that'll give me about 75lb.
 
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I'd be interested to hear if Clinebarger torques wheels


I do....Everytime!!

I've managed a few shops during my career.....It's one of the hardest things to get technicians to do if they're already used to doing it with an Impact. Heard every excuse imaginable. The most popular being "I don't know the torque spec".....So I started printing the spec on the work orders.

In the environment I work in.....If you have the wheel off, You're most likely doing a repair that requires the use of a torque wrench anyway!


There's proof without asking for it that most don't do it. Not in Clinebarger's shop clearly and that's fine no objection at adding extra steps in the name of safety. But proof that most he has encountered before he changes them and yet no wheels popping off or they would have scared themselves into doing it before they got to him. But I can't prove that so it probably isn't true. Anyway. Take it for what it's worth.
 
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Stevie man, you gotta relax.
You know as well as everyone else here that 2 braparaps isn't the right way to do it.
It's just not.
You choose the acknowledged incorrect method and get away with it.

That is all.
 
I never said it was "correct" I made mention before that Torquing is fine. I just shared along with others that we haven't torqued them and used "Good and Plenty" tightness and haven't had a problem.

By all means torque it the correct way. I just don't feel the need and it's all I said.

People here are anal about book spec right down to torquing oil drain plugs as another example and IMO it's not required but by all means if they feel better or want to limit their liability because they run a shop then do so. I did talk about Torquing being necessary for things like head bolts as is the pattern of tightening them down in sequence so it's not like I was saying not to torque things ever!!!!

Here is what I said in response to WyrTwister which started it all... Funny no one jumped on him but they jump on the Amsoil guy who hates Bosch when they have had beefs in the past with me. But that's ok. The more they engage the more I do. I got lots of time. They will wear themselves out.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I have never used a torque wrench on lug nuts , and I am nor a senioe citizen . None have fallen off yet .

^^^ I usually hit them with the pneumatic or impact driver until they stop and then move on to the other ones. Then I go back and hit them with a short burst of the gun again checking each one. Never torqued and never had any issues including bearing/hub issues or stud issues. My dad has done that for decades as well.

Torquing and torque procedures / order has it's place like with head bolts for example but I think there are a lot of places that it's not needed.

Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough IMO.


Originally Posted by StevieC

Like I said to Trav, no harm done torquing it. But in the 37+ years I have been around (28 of them learning/working with my dad on the side and full time at times) and the 50+ years my dad has been a licensed mechanic he hasn't torqued the wheel nuts and 0 issues, 0 lawsuits, 0 comebacks. I'm not saying don't do it, but that we haven't and had no issues because we double check each nut a 2nd time with the gun at full power for a short blast.

The tires on my Caravan when I took them off to put my Snow tires on were so tight I had no choice but to use a breaker bar to get them loose on 3 wheels and the 4th wheel was fine with just the impact gun so clearly they weren't torqued properly from the get go. I put them back on with a high torque battery powered impact driver in the method I have described and drove them 10,000km (6K miles) 0 issues. I then pulled them all off at the last oil change and rotated the fronts to back and put them back on and it has been 3,000km and 0 issues and I'm sure it's not what FCA spec is nor was it the case on my Journey either. Also 0 issues. Also 0 issues on my Santa Fe with multiple sets of tires, rotations etc.

Here is what FCA calls for for my '18 Caravan... Which again I assure you mine aren't tightened to this spec I'm sure and no wheels popping off. And again I'm not against Torquing them, adding a step for safety is always a good thing. It's just my opinion and mine alone it's not needed is all. To each their own with what they are comfortable with.



Wheel Torque.png
 
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No, you don't understand it (or read the link ???)...your persecution complex doesn't make you right in all these threads...
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
No, you don't understand it (or read the link ???)...your persecution complex doesn't make you right in all these threads...

Again, I never said that not torquing was right. I said I didn't do it because I never felt the need and it was in response to a comment that WyrTwister made along the same lines.

This is just you along with others feeling the need to jump on anything I have to say. It's all good though, like I said I got lots of time... So keep on posting and I'll keep on responding.
 
I don't use a torque wrench on my lug nuts either. Anyone want to berate me?
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I use an el cheapo harbor freight air impact and then fine tune with a long handled breaker bar. I use a torque wrench on many types of fasteners. I just don't see it as necessary when it comes to my wheels. If I was helping you work on your rig and you wanted your lug nuts torqued I'd have no problem making that happen.

I guess in closing, don't try this at home kids?
 
Originally Posted by HighbrowHillbill
I don't use a torque wrench on my lug nuts either. Anyone want to berate me?
coffee2.gif
I use an el cheapo harbor freight air impact and then fine tune with a long handled breaker bar. I use a torque wrench on many types of fasteners. I just don't see it as necessary when it comes to my wheels. If I was helping you work on your rig and you wanted your lug nuts torqued I'd have no problem making that happen.

I guess in closing, don't try this at home kids?

Thanks for that... I've gone ahead and updated my signature to be sure no one misunderstands my take on Torquing and the other issue the group seems to take issue with in another thread. Hope everyone can sleep now.
 
Originally Posted by clinebarger
... I've managed a few shops during my career.....It's one of the hardest things to get technicians to do if they're already used to doing it with an Impact. Heard every excuse imaginable. The most popular being "I don't know the torque spec"...
I can believe that. If you get them to do it properly, you must be in a small minority among managers.

Once when I bought tires at a Sears, I witnessed the installer grossly overtighten (as I found later) the lugs with an impact wrench, THEN use a torque wrench to prove they weren't loose. Stupid!
 
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