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Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4976652
01/12/19 02:12 AM
01/12/19 02:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,525
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,525
'Stralia
Apologies...hadn't read that...


Because sometimes the simple things in life...
...simply don't know any better
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4976705
01/12/19 06:58 AM
01/12/19 06:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Everything you wanted to know about GTL but you were afraid to ask.

From "Synthetics, Mineral Oils, and Bio-Based Lubricants: Chemistry and Technology" edited by Leslie R. Rudnick.

There are even what I call base-oil-quality index (BOQI) curves -- that is NOACK vs. CCS -- in the last page.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Gokhan] #4976711
01/12/19 07:15 AM
01/12/19 07:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 554
Suomi
Bjornviken Offline
Bjornviken  Offline

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 554
Suomi
Thanks again Gokhan👍

Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Bjornviken] #4976717
01/12/19 07:19 AM
01/12/19 07:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,667
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,667
NY
Originally Posted by Bjornviken
Thanks again Gokhan👍

thumbsup


God Bless Our Troops

Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Gokhan] #4976823
01/12/19 09:55 AM
01/12/19 09:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,972
New Braunfels
Bryanccfshr Offline
Bryanccfshr  Offline

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,972
New Braunfels
The links are broken for me,
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Everything you wanted to know about GTL but you were afraid to ask.

From "Synthetics, Mineral Oils, and Bio-Based Lubricants: Chemistry and Technology" edited by Leslie R. Rudnick.

There are even what I call base-oil-quality index (BOQI) curves -- that is NOACK vs. CCS -- in the last page.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


2018 Trd Pro 4Runner
2018 Tacoma off-road

Dealer 0w20 to M1 0w40 FS -it depends
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Bryanccfshr] #4977121
01/12/19 03:47 PM
01/12/19 03:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
The links are broken for me,

Oops, thanks for the heads-up. Let's try again.

Everything you wanted to know about GTL but you were afraid to ask.

From "Synthetics, Mineral Oils, and Bio-Based Lubricants: Chemistry and Technology" edited by Leslie R. Rudnick.

There are even what I call base-oil-quality index (BOQI) curves -- that is NOACK vs. CCS -- in the last page.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4977123
01/12/19 03:48 PM
01/12/19 03:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 24,100
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline
StevieC  Offline

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 24,100
ON, Canada eh?
Still getting a Do-Not-Enter symbol and blank space thereafter.


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 25k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20

Fear 20wt oils if you want your engine to last. smirk2
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: StevieC] #4977127
01/12/19 03:51 PM
01/12/19 03:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by StevieC
Still getting a Do-Not-Enter symbol and blank space thereafter.

Currently fixing my last post. I must have linked them from the private album.

...

Done fixing it. It now works even when I'm not logged in to Google.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4977242
01/12/19 06:15 PM
01/12/19 06:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,741
San Antonio, TX
Nyogtha Offline
Nyogtha  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,741
San Antonio, TX
I haven't read them, but I doubt those pages say the Shell XHVI stocks mentioned by you and Shannow to be from a GTL process. Can you confirm Gokhan?


"No matter how paranoid you are you're not paranoid enough. Tell the truth. Reach as many people as you can with it. That's your weapon." - Susanne Modeski, aka "Holly" to The Lone Gunmen
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4977282
01/12/19 07:02 PM
01/12/19 07:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,200
MT
jongies3 Offline
jongies3  Offline

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,200
MT
One of the main properties is that finding a oil with PAO in it is a lot easier than finding PUP anywhere! Lol


2004 Toyota Tacoma 3.4 V6: Mobil 1 AFE 0W-30, FRAM PH3614 filter
1969 Mustang Mach 1 5.8 V8: PYB 10W-30, Napa Gold 1515 filter
2013 Honda 400EX ATV: Mobil 1 Racing 4t 10W-40, OEM filter
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Nyogtha] #4977444
01/12/19 09:50 PM
01/12/19 09:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
I haven't read them, but I doubt those pages say the Shell XHVI stocks mentioned by you and Shannow to be from a GTL process. Can you confirm Gokhan?

Yes, it's in the first page. It says, since 1993 - 1994, XHVI has used the Fischer - Tropsch wax (GTL wax) from the Bintulu, Malaysia, plant as the feedstock to generate the XHVI base stock. Before 1993, it used slack wax obtained from crude oil as the feedstock.

So, XHVI has been GTL since 1993 - 1994.

A more detailed reference:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...yst_will_optimize_product_yield_in_Qatar

Abstract: Shell was the first oil marketer to commercialize gas-to-liquids (GTL) technology for base oil production, with the commissioning of the multi-purpose GTL facility in Bintulu, Malaysia, in 1993. Bintulu produced detergent feedstocks, a range of Fischer-Tropsch (FT) commercial wax grades and a feedstock, a so-called waxy raffinate (WR), to produce base oil. WR production involves the hydro-isomerization of a FT wax made from a first generation FT wax synthesis catalyst, using a fixed bed reactor, with the wax having a maximum carbon number of ≈ 100. This FT wax is then hydrocracked and hydroisomerized. Shipped to Shell facilities in Japan and France, the WR was solvent de-waxed, becoming the first commercially available GTL base oil in the market. This was a 5 cs grade marketed as Shell XHVI™. In 2009, the first phase of Shell's GTL facility in Qatar will be on stream. It will include substantial base oils facilities, producing a full range of viscosity grades from 2 to > 9 cs. With a total capacity of the first phase of 70,000 bpd, the output of the Qatar plant will be just under five times the capacity of Bintulu. Shell's first generation GTL base oils had exceptionally high VI (> 140), good Noack volatility characteristics, high saturates content (> 99%) and a predominantly iso-paraffin content. The difference between first generation Shell GTL base oils from Bintulu and the second generation is primarily due to new proprietary catalysts, which lead to higher yield of material in the lubricating oil carbon number range and the use of a Shell catalytic de-waxing technology for final de-waxing of the base oils, rather than solvent de-waxing.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Nyogtha] #4977532
01/12/19 11:29 PM
01/12/19 11:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,525
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,525
'Stralia
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
I haven't read them, but I doubt those pages say the Shell XHVI stocks mentioned by you and Shannow to be from a GTL process. Can you confirm Gokhan?


The stuff that I have was from the "slack wax" days/.


Because sometimes the simple things in life...
...simply don't know any better
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4977533
01/12/19 11:32 PM
01/12/19 11:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,741
San Antonio, TX
Nyogtha Offline
Nyogtha  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,741
San Antonio, TX
OK, so confirmed prior to 1993 the original Shell XHVI process did not use GTL technology, but that beginning in 1993 Shell began using GTL technology to produce XHVI base stocks. Difference beteween the process, and the base stock, as I was discussing in my earlier posts this thread, as Shannow was in the Shell XHVI retail products he shows from the mid-80's.

Anything in that book regarding the yield from catalytic dewaxing vs solvent dewaxing?

Last edited by Nyogtha; 01/12/19 11:34 PM.

"No matter how paranoid you are you're not paranoid enough. Tell the truth. Reach as many people as you can with it. That's your weapon." - Susanne Modeski, aka "Holly" to The Lone Gunmen
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4977604
01/13/19 01:44 AM
01/13/19 01:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
It appears that Pennzoil Platinum and Quaker State Ultimate Durability have been GTL (produced in Bintulu, Malaysia) long before PurePlus (produced in Pearl, Qatar) was introduced. This explains their excellent performance back then and not much performance change since the introduction of PurePlus.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: PAO properties compared to GTL? (Pennz PUP) [Re: Linctex] #4977627
01/13/19 03:03 AM
01/13/19 03:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
Los Angeles, California
And, finally, here comes the performance comparison of Group III, GTL, and PAO.

As expected, GTL readily beats Group III.

However, interestingly, GTL seems to beat PAO in many instances as well. Go figure. GTL can have slower oxidation, less engine deposits, and higher BOQI than PAO according to this data.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
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