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How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? #4976692
01/12/19 05:47 AM
01/12/19 05:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 20,515
CA
The Critic Offline OP
The Critic  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 20,515
CA
2008 VW Passat 2.0T

The repair manual specified 200nM (148 ft lbs) plus 180 degrees for the front axle bolt. This car calls for the Type B bolt without the ribs. The updated axle bolt is a 24mm twelve-point bolt with a pre-applied red threadlocker. Per VW, it is one-time use.

I think this may be a TTY bolt.

In terms of “actual force exerted,” what does 148 ft lbs plus 180 degrees actually amount to? 300 ft-lbs? 400 ft-lbs? I used a 5’ long breaker bar plus my body weight (230 lbs) and it was not easy to get the bolt to turn 180 degrees...but I did it.

Here’s a picture of the bolt in question.


8C855F7A-8CF5-454A-98CF-B22DEE1735B5.pngEE4F3F40-AACC-45A6-8D71-D3EC34170F5E.jpeg
Last edited by The Critic; 01/12/19 05:50 AM.

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Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976701
01/12/19 06:47 AM
01/12/19 06:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,389
Nowhere NM
Smoky14 Online content
Smoky14  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,389
Nowhere NM
Depends on thread pitch. If times past count, the old VW axel torque was 600Ft/lbs if I recall. Gooten tight.
Smoky


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Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976709
01/12/19 07:10 AM
01/12/19 07:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 483
Chicagoland
Skippy722 Offline
Skippy722  Offline

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 483
Chicagoland
I spent more time googling and trying to figure this out than I really want to admit too, and it’s now 6:10am.


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Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976766
01/12/19 08:46 AM
01/12/19 08:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,883
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Global Moderator
Kestas  Offline
Global Moderator

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Posts: 12,883
The Motor City
The spec may be to preload the bearings properly. With many bearing hub unit designs the proper axle nut torque is critical for proper bearing preload.

Also, the bolt doesn't have the smooth shank that is narrower than the threads. This suggests it is not a TTY bolt and is a one time use because of the locktite.

Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976784
01/12/19 09:10 AM
01/12/19 09:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,936
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,936
SE British Columbia, Canada
Ok, 200 Nm with the torque wrench. Mark the nut, then set the air powered impact wrench to rock N roll and have at it. No lube or antisieze. Correct? .


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976785
01/12/19 09:11 AM
01/12/19 09:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 286
East Texas
mitsuman47 Offline
mitsuman47  Offline

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 286
East Texas
230 lbs x 5 = 1150 ft-lbs

thankyou

Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976804
01/12/19 09:38 AM
01/12/19 09:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,534
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Online content
Astro14  Online Content

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,534
Virginia Beach
The 148 ftlbs takes out the slack in the assembly.

The 180 degrees sets the bolt stretch.

Bolt stretch exerts the clamping force that the engineers specified.

With the thread pitch and bolt size, an engineer could estimate the clamping force of that bolt. I imagine it to be in the few thousand pound range.


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Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976878
01/12/19 11:04 AM
01/12/19 11:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,191
Los Gatos, CA
JeffKeryk Offline
JeffKeryk  Offline

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,191
Los Gatos, CA
I thought you meant nano meters, which is commonly referred to as "tech node" in semiconductors.
Ya never know...


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Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976884
01/12/19 11:11 AM
01/12/19 11:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 866
texas
danez_yoda Offline
danez_yoda  Offline

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 866
texas
Torque it till your eyes cross.

Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976902
01/12/19 11:31 AM
01/12/19 11:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 629
Suburban Washington DC
atikovi Offline
atikovi  Offline

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 629
Suburban Washington DC
Originally Posted by The Critic
I used a 5’ long breaker bar plus my body weight (230 lbs) and it was not easy to get the bolt to turn 180 degrees...but I did it.



Maybe get a torque multiplier if you do this often?

Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4976993
01/12/19 01:12 PM
01/12/19 01:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,270
PNW/WA
JOD Offline
JOD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,270
PNW/WA
Originally Posted by The Critic
In terms of “actual force exerted,” what does 148 ft lbs plus 180 degrees actually amount to? 300 ft-lbs? 400 ft-lbs? I used a 5’ long breaker bar plus my body weight (230 lbs) and it was not easy to get the bolt to turn 180 degrees...but I did it.

It doesn't equate to any "actual force exerted" or friction torque, since you're tightening the bolt past the yield point (yes, it's a TTY bolt). That said, the reason for using angle torque is that "force exerted on the bolt" is very imprecise in determining bolt tension. That's the whole point of using angle torque.

This does a good job of explaining it: http://www.boltscience.com/pages/a-case-study-in-torque-angle-tightening.pdf

Bickford's book goes into this in greater detail, if you really like to geek out on this stuff. It's the seminal text on the subject:
https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Design-Behavior-Mechanical-Engineering/dp/0824792971

One interesting note there is the yield strength graph on re-used TTY fasteners. I totally understand why manufacturers call for these to never be reused, but the reality is that a TTY fastener reused once is generally stronger than a new one.

Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4977027
01/12/19 01:39 PM
01/12/19 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,546
VW Fanboy Island
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,546
VW Fanboy Island
I did the same on my car, max out the torque wrench and then crank the bejeezus out of it. I think mine was only 90 degrees though.

I'd rather not have to purchase a 3/4 or 1 inch torque wrench just to do axle nuts. Cranking something to a confirmed 5-600 ft/lbs would make you feel really strong though.


03 Jetta AWP/09A 205k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4977079
01/12/19 03:03 PM
01/12/19 03:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 940
Fernandina Beach FL
Dan55 Offline
Dan55  Offline

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 940
Fernandina Beach FL
I used 4’ cheater on a breaker bar to tighten those bolts for my 2000 Passat GLX.


2016 Lexus NX200T 2017 Mustang Conv Eco Prem
Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4977130
01/12/19 03:52 PM
01/12/19 03:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,211
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,211
Michigan
Torque is the 3rd-best way of setting bolt clamp force. Friction on the head underside and in the threads is too variable to get much better than +/-15% clamp load.
Turn-angle is much better for accuracy. There is still inaccuracy in measuring turn angle, as most mechanics make marks with a Sharpie, then eyeball the turn angle.
Direct measurement of stretch is best of all. But expensive and impractical for many situations.


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Re: How Tight is 200nM + 180 degrees? [Re: The Critic] #4977147
01/12/19 04:04 PM
01/12/19 04:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 778
Denmark
shDK Offline
shDK  Offline

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 778
Denmark
The 200 NM is to preload the bearing. The 180 degrees is to stretch the bolt. Often the the torque applied doesn’t increase verry much when you stretch the bolt. And although it is not something the engineers wan’t you to do. There is nothing wrong with doing the 180 degrees with an impact gun.

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