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tightening torque for wheel lugs #4975910 01/11/19 11:18 AM
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BobGoblin Offline OP
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Hi. I bought a torque wrench. What a cool tool! laugh

Anyway, my tightening torrque for wheel lugs is 88-107 Nm by the book. But previosly by hand I tightened them to over 200 Nm. So this 100 Nm feels unsafe and weak. I can turn about 1/4 turn after 120Nm! I am afraid it is too low torque. What do you think?

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975921 01/11/19 11:26 AM
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hallstevenson Online Content
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Torque them to 87-100 Nm. Just because you could hand-tighten them to 200+ doesn't make a difference.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975924 01/11/19 11:27 AM
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Donald Offline
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What kind of torque wrench? A clicker?

Could be off calibration. FInd someone with a beam type and torque the lugs down and then try with your new torque wrench. The beam type seldom go out of calibration.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975928 01/11/19 11:33 AM
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I have never used a torque wrench on lug nuts , and I am nor a senioe citizen . None have fallen off yet .


Wyr
God bless
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975930 01/11/19 11:37 AM
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demarpaint Offline
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I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: demarpaint] #4975936 01/11/19 11:40 AM
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Pelican Offline
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.


Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975943 01/11/19 11:46 AM
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anndel Offline
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I have a Precision Instruments split beam torque wrench that's always on 80 ft-lbf for Toyota lug nuts. I change the setting when I need it for something else but in your case, torque to factory specs and see if yours is calibrated.


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2005 Toyota Avalon XL, 3.5L V6, Amsoil XL 5W-30, Amsoil Filter
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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975946 01/11/19 11:50 AM
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tig1 Offline
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What's a Nm? I torque mine to about 95 ft lbs.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975949 01/11/19 11:52 AM
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BobGoblin Offline OP
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I bought 3 wrenches (clicker), one for me, and other two for my friends. Brand new. They are all the same. I just feel 100nm is too weak, I am afraid it wild loosen it by itself while driving. Thats all. I will tighten them to 110Nm, and monitor every few days if it loosened...

Nm is Newton meter. Thats the unit we use in Europe.

Last edited by BobGoblin; 01/11/19 11:53 AM.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Pelican] #4975964 01/11/19 12:01 PM
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MasterSolenoid Offline
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Originally Posted by Pelican
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.

Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.


2002 Ford Ranger
2 Wheel Drive
3.0 Liter Engine
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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975967 01/11/19 12:01 PM
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Donald Offline
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by chance are you lubricating the lug nuts or studs?

Last edited by Donald; 01/11/19 12:02 PM.

2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975977 01/11/19 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BobGoblin
Hi. I bought a torque wrench. What a cool tool! laugh

Anyway, my tightening torrque for wheel lugs is 88-107 Nm by the book. But previosly by hand I tightened them to over 200 Nm. So this 100 Nm feels unsafe and weak. I can turn about 1/4 turn after 120Nm! I am afraid it is too low torque. What do you think?


200 Nm is 147 ft lbs. The torque for my 3/4 ton Chev Suburban with 8 lug nuts on 17 inch wheels is 140 ft lbs. You were applying 147 ft lbs to a Kia? shocked2

Last edited by Snagglefoot; 01/11/19 12:13 PM.

If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975978 01/11/19 12:10 PM
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200 Nm = 147 ft Nm

I see a chart of various torque values for other Kias and they range from 80-100 ft/lbs (108-135 Nm). Again, use the spec'd value. Just because you used to use higher torque doesn't mean it's right.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975979 01/11/19 12:13 PM
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spavel6 Offline
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Grab a Harbor Freight 1/2" Torque Wrench, and set it to the midpoint of that range - it will be accurate enough.

I am in the camp that believes the numerous online tests showing HF torque wrenches being within 1-2% of actual torque specs..


2003 VW Jetta Wagon TDI 198k M1 5W40 TDT
2001 VW GTI VR6 250k T6 5W40
2001 VW Passat Wagon V6 4motion 110k PP 5W30
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: WyrTwister] #4975989 01/11/19 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I have never used a torque wrench on lug nuts , and I am nor a senioe citizen . None have fallen off yet .

I used to think like that. But then I bought a $30 HF clicker and "warping" and "balancing" issues vanished. My non calibrated "ugga duggas" were causing runout.


06 Escalade 6.0L LQ9 AWD 170k M1 5w30
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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4975991 01/11/19 12:23 PM
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Kestas Online Content
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I bought my first torque wrench after 20 years of wrenching. I was surprised how little torque was needed for wheel bolts compared with previously doing it by feel.

My clicker torque wrench was bought from JC Whitney. I calibrated it at work and found it torques 10% light in the range I use it the most.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Kestas] #4976027 01/11/19 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestas
I bought my first torque wrench after 20 years of wrenching. I was surprised how little torque was needed for wheel bolts compared with previously doing it by feel.

My clicker torque wrench was bought from JC Whitney. I calibrated it at work and found it torques 10% light in the range I use it the most.


That's the usual experience. Just because you *can* over-tighten the fastener, and have been doing that for years, does not mean that you *should*.

10% accuracy for the tool is good enough -- that's well within the error range for conditions and technique. If you have a calibration tester available, observe the changes with different grip positions, applying a bit of twist, using a medium socket vs a shallow socket, and a sloppy vs snug socket fit.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: WyrTwister] #4976056 01/11/19 01:10 PM
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StevieC Offline
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Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I have never used a torque wrench on lug nuts , and I am nor a senioe citizen . None have fallen off yet .

^^^ I usually hit them with the pneumatic or impact driver until they stop and then move on to the other ones. Then I go back and hit them with a short burst of the gun again checking each one. Never torqued and never had any issues including bearing/hub issues or stud issues. My dad has done that for decades as well.

Torquing and torque procedures / order has it's place like with head bolts for example but I think there are a lot of places that it's not needed.

Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough.

Last edited by StevieC; 01/11/19 01:14 PM.

'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976064 01/11/19 01:17 PM
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andyd Offline
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The spec doesn't matter so much as the application. Lugs are tightened in a 3 stage star pattern with the wrench you keep in the trunk, not your tool box at home. grin2

I checked the lugs on the Camry after the winter wheels were put on. Every single one was able to be loosened with the 3/4 jack handle that fits the winter nuts. That the lugs were different than stock was a surprise. Usually, I make discoveries like this miles from home. grin2


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: MasterSolenoid] #4976066 01/11/19 01:20 PM
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demarpaint Offline
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Originally Posted by MasterSolenoid
Originally Posted by Pelican
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.

Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.

thumbsup I figure it is easy enough to do. I've cursed repair and tire shops that slam them home with an impact gun. On more than one occasion I had to slip a pipe on a breaker bar to get them loose. Using a torque wrench adds very little time. Then I know the wheels are torqued properly and I won't have to fight and curse removing them next time. OTOH I'm not going to stand on a soapbox preaching the merits or debate not using a torque.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4976088 01/11/19 01:39 PM
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Trav Offline
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I have never used a torque wrench on lug nuts , and I am nor a senioe citizen . None have fallen off yet .

^^^ I usually hit them with the pneumatic or impact driver until they stop and then move on to the other ones. Then I go back and hit them with a short burst of the gun again checking each one. Never torqued and never had any issues including bearing/hub issues or stud issues. My dad has done that for decades as well.

Torquing and torque procedures / order has it's place like with head bolts for example but I think there are a lot of places that it's not needed.

Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough.


You need to post your you tube videos and forget giving hack advise on repairs. Now for 10 pages on why its okay and all the rest of that crap.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Trav] #4976107 01/11/19 01:58 PM
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+1

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Trav] #4976118 01/11/19 02:11 PM
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StevieC Offline
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Originally Posted by Trav
You need to post your you tube videos and forget giving hack advise on repairs. Now for 10 pages on why its okay and all the rest of that crap.


Whatever you say... Why don't you tell me more about your love affair with Bosch and how they are the bestest and most super duper. smirk2

Last edited by StevieC; 01/11/19 02:12 PM.

'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4976137 01/11/19 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Trav
You need to post your you tube videos and forget giving hack advise on repairs. Now for 10 pages on why its okay and all the rest of that crap.

Whatever you say... Why don't you tell me more about your love affair with Bosch and how they are the bestest and most super duper. smirk2

Well Bosch is under the hood of almost every car on the road, so...


"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4976153 01/11/19 02:38 PM
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demarpaint Offline
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Trav
You need to post your you tube videos and forget giving hack advise on repairs. Now for 10 pages on why its okay and all the rest of that crap.


Whatever you say... Why don't you tell me more about your love affair with Bosch and how they are the bestest and most super duper. smirk2

FTR What does that have to do with torquing lug nuts?


God Bless Our Troops

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976154 01/11/19 02:41 PM
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It doesn't Trav was being a bit of a jerk so I was being cheeky back.


'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976247 01/11/19 04:05 PM
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I always use brake clean to clean the taper in the wheel (mind the paint) and the inside of the lug nut and threads. No oil or anti-seize. Torque dry. You can anti-seize the hub where the wheel centers lightly.

Never had one come loose.

If they have been over torqued look at the lug stud to see if it is necked down right where it comes out of the hub. If there is any diameter decrease have new studs installed. I use a small steel rule,as a straight edge to make it easier to see.


Link to good picture.
https://www.google.com/search?q=overtorque+bolt+picture&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS819US819&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjghcOL0ObfAhUFXq0KHeXpA3cQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1920&bih=938#imgrc=8Z5rrGvVuKZIQM:



Rod

Last edited by ragtoplvr; 01/11/19 04:11 PM.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976259 01/11/19 04:14 PM
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Trav Offline
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I don't think so. Your post is way off on all accounts and anyone reading that and tries doing a job that way can end up with all sorts of issues.
Many if not most cordless impacts use a pin and clutch mechanism and not the more controllable hammer(s), the problem with that is they make high torque right out of the gate so a few raps with that could be way higher than spec.

Many of the guys that don't do this type of work for a living use cordless exclusively and many of them are the biggest offered (bigger is better right). People all over the world visit this site so you must be careful posting hacks, work arounds, and shade tree repairs.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976265 01/11/19 04:22 PM
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In the words of Mr. Garison from South Park.... Mmmmm K

Well you have stated what is safe by all means and I have stated what has been our experiences where absolutely nothing has happened doing it the way I described and you can call it whatever you want but it doesn't change the fact that many folks do it this way and have 0 issues.

It's funny when tow-truck drivers put on your full-size spares they don't torque your wheel nuts either and what about people that put on their own spares using the tools provided by the OEM. How come they don't provide a torque wrench if it's soooooooooooo important to safety? Not to mention all the cars driving around missing lug nuts, missing studs for the nuts or using standard nuts in place of lug nuts, I'm sure the nuts that are present are torqued though in those situations because their wheels are staying on.

Hmmmm Seems dangerous to me not to torque and use reasonable tightness given your "it absolutely needs to be torqued" standard! smirk2

This is what I said for the record... Which endorses double checking each lug nut to make sure it's tight enough by hitting it again with the gun so unless you are using a pancake compressor or some other weak way to put the nuts back on it's not going to be a problem and if it was you wouldn't have gotten them off in the first place with the same tool that is too weak. shrug

Originally Posted by StevieC

^^^ I usually hit them with the pneumatic or impact driver until they stop and then move on to the other ones. Then I go back and hit them with a short burst of the gun again checking each one. Never torqued and never had any issues including bearing/hub issues or stud issues. My dad has done that for decades as well.

Torquing and torque procedures / order has it's place like with head bolts for example but I think there are a lot of places that it's not needed.

Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough.

Last edited by StevieC; 01/11/19 04:45 PM.

'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976274 01/11/19 04:34 PM
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It is interesting how lug torque seems relatively low for the application yet it works just fine. I figure it's not just one lug, but 4 (or 5 or more) all working together and spread across an area. So the wheel stays put. I imagine the engineers are shooting for a balance between being tight enough so that it doesn't fall off, but not so tight that it warps the rotor or damages the stud (or wheel). This is exactly why torque specs matter. Yes, they do matter. Just because someone hasn't had a bad experience without torquing, doesn't mean it's OK. These people place their own values into a risk vs reward equation... as if there is a reward to be had for not using the proper tool. To me, there is no equation. The torque spec is provided by the equipment manufacturer. I mean really, it's not hard to do it right. And if you know how to use tools, it's not very inconvenient either.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Donald] #4976275 01/11/19 04:35 PM
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BobGoblin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Donald
by chance are you lubricating the lug nuts or studs?



of course not. dry nuts.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976290 01/11/19 04:56 PM
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I think my 10-year-old Craftsman clicker has gotten out of calibration, even though I always park it at 0 when I'm done with it. It takes so little force to torque my car's lugnuts to "95" that I think it's shorting me about 20 ft-lbs. Ordered a beam-style to see how far off I am. Thanks for the advice, guys!


2015 GMC Canyon 3.6
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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976343 01/11/19 06:09 PM
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I have to torque the lug nuts on my RV to 450-500 lb-ft. Takes a BIG torque wrench. Drive axle means loosening the outer nuts, torquing the inners, and then retorquing the outers. That makes a total of 80 lugs; MFR recommends redoing it every 2000 miles.

Yes, I use a torque wrench on my cars as well and torque to the center of the manufacturer's suggested range. Never a problem with stretched lugs or bolts coming off. I feel better knowing that when I get a flat at night in the rain I can count on being able to get the bolts off with the supplied wrench. I'll snug up the replacement wheel and then set the torque when I get home.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976370 01/11/19 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BobGoblin
Hi. I bought a torque wrench. What a cool tool! laugh

Anyway, my tightening torrque for wheel lugs is 88-107 Nm by the book. But previosly by hand I tightened them to over 200 Nm. So this 100 Nm feels unsafe and weak. I can turn about 1/4 turn after 120Nm! I am afraid it is too low torque. What do you think?


Something sounds not right.

140 ft lbs tq is too much for wheel lug nut on most of cars. If you can turn more by hands, something messed up there.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: s2krunner] #4976387 01/11/19 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by s2krunner
[quote=BobGoblin] Something sounds not right. 140 ft lbs tq is too much for wheel lug nut on most of cars. If you can turn more by hands, something messed up there.


I agree. Most Kia's are in the 70 - 80 ft. lb. range. His 150+ ft. lbs. may have buggered up (stretched) the bolts beyond their proof load (elastic range). Or, as suggested above, his wrench is not accurate.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: djb] #4976390 01/11/19 07:10 PM
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All the info you need is in this post. Tighten them. Your feel is obviously way off and causing damage. Technique is responsible for a lot more variation in torque than calibration. Sounds like you need some retraining.
Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Kestas
I bought my first torque wrench after 20 years of wrenching. I was surprised how little torque was needed for wheel bolts compared with previously doing it by feel.

My clicker torque wrench was bought from JC Whitney. I calibrated it at work and found it torques 10% light in the range I use it the most.


That's the usual experience. Just because you *can* over-tighten the fastener, and have been doing that for years, does not mean that you *should*.

10% accuracy for the tool is good enough -- that's well within the error range for conditions and technique. If you have a calibration tester available, observe the changes with different grip positions, applying a bit of twist, using a medium socket vs a shallow socket, and a sloppy vs snug socket fit.


Last edited by 2strokeNorthstar; 01/11/19 07:10 PM.

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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4976423 01/11/19 07:36 PM
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I know you are not an experienced mechanic or a mechanic at all but seriously you need to stop. Don't run this garbage you are posting on and on because you cant/wont admit you are wrong under any circumstances as usual, just post your videos and finding problems with your new car and leave advise on wrenching to others that know what are doing.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976455 01/11/19 08:11 PM
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Too much torque just makes it such a pain to get them off when you’re wrenching them off on the side of the road. smile

Last edited by Snagglefoot; 01/11/19 08:19 PM.

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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Snagglefoot] #4976468 01/11/19 08:34 PM
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True! Ask demarpaint about that one.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4976474 01/11/19 08:40 PM
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Funny story I just remembered which pertains to this. About 2 years ago I got a call from my nephew, a 35 year old NYC Fireman, a big guy and strong. He got a flat not far from my house and couldn't get the tire off to change it. He called and asked I bring some tools. I grabbed a 3 ton floor jack, a 25" breaker bar, 2' of pipe, sockets and an extension. Long story short two of us couldn't get that tire off. I suggested we stop before we break something. After some cursing of morons using mega power impact tools to tighten up wheels I asked him to call my niece and see if they had road side assistance, which they did. LOL We joked about that too. I hung with him, and the guy who came couldn't get the tire off, without either snapping them off, or using a tool to cut them off, and he didn't have lug nuts with him. He towed the vehicle to a local shop, and the following morning they used "special tools" as described by my nephew to remove the wheel. I'll continue to use a torque wrench. My guess is some fool at a tire shop or service station ran the lugs down with a 1" impact gun.

Oh and we broke two star wrenches. Could I have gotten them off? Most likely, if it were in my driveway, not freezing cold, and I didn't have to be concerned with busting something that wasn't mine. Me I'll stick to my method and using a torque wrench.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976544 01/11/19 10:04 PM
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After spinning 10 or so studs by having lug nuts torqued too tight (and becoming an expert at cutting them off with a dremel), I started using a torque wrench for all my lug nuts.

Spinning studs on the side of the road ain't fun.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: demarpaint] #4976560 01/11/19 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.


+1

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Trav] #4976563 01/11/19 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Trav
I know you are not an experienced mechanic or a mechanic at all but seriously you need to stop. Don't run this garbage you are posting on and on because you cant/wont admit you are wrong under any circumstances as usual, just post your videos and finding problems with your new car and leave advise on wrenching to others that know what are doing.

I was thinking the exact same thing. This user sounds quite familiar.

BobGoblin from Europe, that's a good one. And an M.D. too lol.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: demarpaint] #4976584 01/11/19 11:02 PM
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That's almost a bad as my trade school instructor laughing his backside off watching me trying to get the drivers side (IIRC) lugs off a 64 Belvedere. The other side came off dead easy but not one on this side, LH thread lugs. duh


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976592 01/11/19 11:11 PM
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I enjoy using my torque wrenches. I do use a dab of anti sieze.
It is nice to know the wheel is evenly torqued.

When I was young and lifted a lotta weight, I musta applied at least 120 pound feet or more to everything.
No more...

Last edited by JeffKeryk; 01/11/19 11:13 PM.

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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: MasterSolenoid] #4976688 01/12/19 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MasterSolenoid
Originally Posted by Pelican
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.

Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.


Ou r Tuscon spec is exactly 65-79 ft.lbs in the owner's manual! Same as your kia.
I Try not to go over 73-75 but tire shops do it at 80 and won't listen to what you have to say. One of them said that's what their books show and legally they have to torque it to 80. Not a problem just 1 over 79.
147 is not a good idea!

Last edited by OilUzer; 01/12/19 04:44 AM.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: OilUzer] #4976693 01/12/19 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by MasterSolenoid
Originally Posted by Pelican
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.

Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.


Ou r Tuscon spec is exactly 65-79 ft.lbs in the owner's manual! Same as your kia.
I Try not to go over 73-75 but tire shops do it at 80 and won't listen to what you have to say. One of them said that's what their books show and legally they have to torque it to 80. Not a problem just 1 over 79.
147 is not a good idea!

A shop doing them at 80, not bad. I would have thought they'd send em' home at 100. LOL 100 would have been a gift the night I was helping my nephew.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: MasterSolenoid] #4976713 01/12/19 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MasterSolenoid
Originally Posted by Pelican
Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.

At 107 Nm for a 12 mm diameter size or 79 ft lbs for half inch diameter bolt, how would one calculates its axial force and tensile stress ?
Anybody care to explain ?

Last edited by zeng; 01/12/19 07:17 AM.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Snagglefoot] #4976720 01/12/19 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Too much torque just makes it such a pain to get them off when you’re wrenching them off on the side of the road. smile


Reminds me of a skit Ellen (comedian) did with another girl. They were along the side of the road changing a tire and Ellen said to other girl "ok, get the thing out of the trunk that goes "zzzip zzzip zzzip".


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: zeng] #4976728 01/12/19 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zeng

At 107 Nm for a 12 mm diameter size or 79 ft lbs for half inch diameter bolt, how would one calculates its axial force and tensile stress ?
Anybody care to explain ?


zeng, for others, not for you.

Strain is the only way to calculate "clamping force"

and "clamping force" is the thing that's stopping the wheels and hubs from fretting/moving.

Torque is a proxy


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: doitmyself] #4976759 01/12/19 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
His 150+ ft. lbs. may have buggered up (stretched) the bolts beyond their proof load (elastic range).

The testing I've done shows it takes a lot more than 150 ft-lbs to stretch a wheel bolt. It's closer to 400 ft-lbs.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976791 01/12/19 09:19 AM
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Even local tire shops start with impact and finish with torque wrench. They want it done properly so customers are satisfied and reduce liability.

It's not like a torque wrench is $1000 tool that only dealers have. It's $50 or so.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4976815 01/12/19 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I have never used a torque wrench on lug nuts , and I am nor a senioe citizen . None have fallen off yet .

^^^ I usually hit them with the pneumatic or impact driver until they stop and then move on to the other ones. Then I go back and hit them with a short burst of the gun again checking each one. Never torqued and never had any issues including bearing/hub issues or stud issues. My dad has done that for decades as well.

Torquing and torque procedures / order has it's place like with head bolts for example but I think there are a lot of places that it's not needed.

Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough.


You wouldn’t happen to be the kid at the tire local store, would you?

The one that used the same method to grossly over tighten wheel bolts?

Damaging them in the process, and making it impossible for an owner to change a tire with the tools in the trunk?


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4976889 01/12/19 11:19 AM
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Although it may be a good practise to re-torque the lug nuts, I believe the tire shops ask you to re-torque ( even for free at the shop) to absolve the tire shop of any liability. The re-torquing thing will be in the fine print on the back of the invoice typically. I’ll bet very few customers ever come back to get them re-torqued. I will often re-torque and have never found a problem. If you find a loose one it is most likely from carelessness at the shop rather than them loosening up from driving. Not saying it’s impossible though. smile

Last edited by Snagglefoot; 01/12/19 11:21 AM.

If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4977110 01/12/19 03:37 PM
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I would heed the advice to retorque. I once put the wheels back on my car, torqued them properly, and found a number of lug nuts loose after driving to Florida. One lug nut was three turns loose.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Kestas] #4977271 01/12/19 06:52 PM
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I read this is more prevalent with aluminum wheels, I don't know why but retorquing both steel and aluminum after 60-100 miles is good practice.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: demarpaint] #4977397 01/12/19 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by OilUzer


Ou r Tuscon spec is exactly 65-79 ft.lbs in the owner's manual! Same as your kia.
I Try not to go over 73-75 but tire shops do it at 80 and won't listen to what you have to say. One of them said that's what their books show and legally they have to torque it to 80. Not a problem just 1 over 79.
147 is not a good idea!

A shop doing them at 80, not bad. I would have thought they'd send em' home at 100. LOL 100 would have been a gift the night I was helping my nephew.


I know what you mean! I will be very happy if they torque it @80 or at the highest torque specified. I've got lots of stories ... I've had cases were both Les Schwab and Discount Tire over torqued to 100 and even more. the car they did before me was a truck @100 or @120 ft.lb I saw the guy using the same wrench and after he torqued one tire, I asked him what torque, and he said oh yeah this should be 80 and not 100 ... Another time, I had 2 broken lug nuts after brake inspection at Les Schawb and they said it's not their fault and they were just bad. I went back to complain to the manager and he said maybe kids in the neighborhood did it! I am NOT kidding you! lol
after that, I will never go back to Les Schwab again! Maybe it is our local store because I've had good luck with them in the past. I think they have changed and going down hill as far as customer service. They get you on brake job as well. they change pads, calippers, rotor and everything else even If the car is only 3-4 years old and want over $1300 ... It happened to a co-worker as well. I told her to go to another brake shop only 2 blocks away and it cost her under $300.

Last edited by OilUzer; 01/12/19 09:27 PM.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Trav] #4977409 01/12/19 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Trav
I read this is more prevalent with aluminum wheels, I don't know why but retorquing both steel and aluminum after 60-100 miles is good practice.


I'm as capable of dumb questions as anyone, so here goes: Do you retorque the wheel or just check for loosening? I suspect you use your torque wrench at the correct setting and if it clicks without turning, you assume its o.k.. Of course the problem here is that torque is supposed to be read while the nut is turning. A stationary nut might take a lot more torque to break it free to rotate. A person would not loosen the nut ever so little then retorque the nut to the proper torque, right?


And, Kestas thank you for pointing out that lug bolts require much higher torque to cause them to get into the plastic stage.

Found this interesting table at an engineering site: https://engineerdog.com/2015/01/11/10-tricks-engineers-need-to-know-about-fasteners/

[Linked Image]

Last edited by doitmyself; 01/12/19 09:48 PM. Reason: add table
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4977512 01/12/19 10:56 PM
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An older mechanic some 60 years ago taught me to wire brush the wheel studs and check the nuts for thread damage then put one drop of 30 wt machine oil on the stud. Then tighten the nuts in opposing maner in 30lb increments to torque. He also said to pay attention to the break loose torque for posible over tightening.On left hand threads there is almost always an L stamped on the end of bolts or studs.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: doitmyself] #4977553 01/13/19 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
I'm as capable of dumb questions as anyone, so here goes: Do you retorque the wheel or just check for loosening? I suspect you use your torque wrench at the correct setting and if it clicks without turning, you assume its o.k.. Of course the problem here is that torque is supposed to be read while the nut is turning. A stationary nut might take a lot more torque to break it free to rotate. A person would not loosen the nut ever so little then retorque the nut to the proper torque, right?

Yes, a proper check for torque involves loosening the fastener so it can be torqued using moving friction, not static friction.

But I'll admit that I only check to make sure there wasn't any gross loosening of the lug nuts.

An engineer who is an expert on car corners once told me truck stud bolts are specified to be clean with two drops of oil before tightening the lug nuts.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4977608 01/13/19 02:05 AM
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Intetesting! I recall reading somewhere that if you lube or add anti seize lubricants to the studs, you will have to torque it %15-20 higher because of the lubrication. it made sense to me on the surface. Maybe there is more to it.
Maybe for the trucks, they specify a higher torque due to lubrication ... idk

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4977630 01/13/19 03:08 AM
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OK, I torqued all my nuts to 110 Nm. I will drive a few days and re-torque again to check for loose nuts.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: OilUzer] #4977651 01/13/19 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
Intetesting! I recall reading somewhere that if you lube or add anti seize lubricants to the studs, you will have to torque it %15-20 higher because of the lubrication. it made sense to me on the surface. Maybe there is more to it.
Maybe for the trucks, they specify a higher torque due to lubrication ... idk


Nope, wrong way.

lubricating threads REDUCES the torque needed to get the stud stretch to provide the proper clamping force.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: zeng] #4977661 01/13/19 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by zeng

At 107 Nm for a 12 mm diameter size or 79 ft lbs for half inch diameter bolt, how would one calculates its axial force and tensile stress ?
Anybody care to explain ?


zeng...HAve finished reading the Invisible's omnibus (my ambition for the Christmas break), and have re-engaged engineer head and have bashed together a very rough presentation on the process, and hope that it helps...

….now for the disclaimers
* this does not constitute medical, maintenance (or engineering advice)
* while it uses scary numbers and facts, it is NOT using the actual pitch dimensions etc. of real fasteners. The rough numbers are used to convey the process, and are (heavily) rounded for convenience in using my Windows 10 Calculator and memory (the 15C and notepad are still in my work bag)
* the use of scary numbers was not to intimidate, nor scare people who don't do numbers, but rely on gut feel, and the fact that however dubious their processes are "nothing blew up in the past, so I'm therefore right...on every topic that I decide to have a tanny in.
* It's (hopefully) obvious that I've not included anything to do with the friction of the nut against the wheel, whether that be a flatnut/washer, or a tapered cone...they ALL affect the outcome seriously.

Bolts Basics.jpg

If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4977665 01/13/19 06:11 AM
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zeng,
having done calculations on thousands of bolts in my turbine engineer career, I much prefer angular rotation as a tightening regime.

Using the above, you can see that every 360 degree rotation of the M12x1.5 nut "stretches" the stud by 1.5mm.

My turbine bolts needed to be installed at 0.15% STRAIN to provide the appropriate clamping force and high temperature life.

So if you had an M12x1.5 that was 100mm long, and needed to install it at 0.15% strain (elongation), you would need 0.15mm of elongation, or 0.15*306/1.5....36 degrees rotation.

Irrespective of surface condition or treatment.

(Turbines, we pulled the casings together using the studs and nuts until they were tight. Then backed them off individually, and finger tightened them to 200ftlb. Heat them up (elongating them to take the nut friction off), then move them to the desired angle, let them cool and you are done).

Now the heating process that made tightening easy for sure also meant that the nut and stud weren't installed with residual torque strains that would add to the triaxial stresses, and reduce life and lead to loosening.

So YES, I agree with going back and having another check when the wheels have worked a bit...we scraped every surface before reinstalling...none of us do that with our wheels and hubs.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: kschachn] #4977666 01/13/19 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Trav
I know you are not an experienced mechanic or a mechanic at all but seriously you need to stop. Don't run this garbage you are posting on and on because you cant/wont admit you are wrong under any circumstances as usual, just post your videos and finding problems with your new car and leave advise on wrenching to others that know what are doing.

I was thinking the exact same thing. This user sounds quite familiar..


Given all the other threads, I'm giggling through this as well.

It's a pattern for sure.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4977688 01/13/19 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by zeng

At 107 Nm for a 12 mm diameter size or 79 ft lbs for half inch diameter bolt, how would one calculates its axial force and tensile stress ?
Anybody care to explain ?


zeng...HAve finished reading the Invisible's omnibus (my ambition for the Christmas break), and have re-engaged engineer head and have bashed together a very rough presentation on the process, and hope that it helps...

….now for the disclaimers
* this does not constitute medical, maintenance (or engineering advice)
* while it uses scary numbers and facts, it is NOT using the actual pitch dimensions etc. of real fasteners. The rough numbers are used to convey the process, and are (heavily) rounded for convenience in using my Windows 10 Calculator and memory (the 15C and notepad are still in my work bag)
* the use of scary numbers was not to intimidate, nor scare people who don't do numbers, but rely on gut feel, and the fact that however dubious their processes are "nothing blew up in the past, so I'm therefore right...on every topic that I decide to have a tanny in.
* It's (hopefully) obvious that I've not included anything to do with the friction of the nut against the wheel, whether that be a flatnut/washer, or a tapered cone...they ALL affect the outcome seriously.



Oh gosh, heaps of thanks Shannow.
Let's see if I could wrap my head around this.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: OilUzer] #4977720 01/13/19 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by MasterSolenoid
Originally Posted by Pelican
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I use one for torquing lug nuts. I go by what the mfg. of the vehicle specs.

Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.


Ou r Tuscon spec is exactly 65-79 ft.lbs in the owner's manual! Same as your kia.
I Try not to go over 73-75 but tire shops do it at 80 and won't listen to what you have to say. One of them said that's what their books show and legally they have to torque it to 80. Not a problem just 1 over 79.
147 is not a good idea!
This is interesting. I'm wondering about the European torque specs for the Kia. 80 N-m = 59 ft-lbs, and 107 N-m = 79 ft-lbs. That sounds a bit on the low side. I wonder if these are small wheels - perhaps 14 or 15"?

The range for our Mazda 5 (16" wheels) is 65 - 87 ft-lbs. I tighten them to 80 ft-lbs.

I go in 20 ft-lb increments - that is, 20, 40, 60, and 80 ft-lbs. I check them after about 100 km, but have never found them to come loose after being tightened with this method.

I have had the lug nuts on alloy wheels loosen up when I went by feel rather than using a torque wrench.

As others have mentioned, torquing them tighter than spec can warp the rotors and/or stretch the studs, as well as making the nuts impossible to remove with the tire changing tools in the trunk.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4978021 01/13/19 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BobGoblin
OK, I torqued all my nuts to 110 Nm. I will drive a few days and re-torque again to check for loose nuts.


Good idea. It takes a whole 2 minutes for peace of mind. Idea for convenience: leave the torque wrench under your seat for a week. After a few days of driving, check it again. It would take less than 2 minutes.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4978143 01/13/19 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough.


They have a torque spec because they are supposed to be torqued, in sequence, to that spec to provides the proper amount of even clamping force for the wheel/rotor/hub assembly. Any decent dealer will always use a torque wrench on the wheels and will require you to come back in ~150Km to have them re-checked. Torque spec varies massively depending on application and stud size, fastener type...etc. Most dealers also won't let you use the same lug nuts for summer aluminum and winter steel wheels, because of the difference in how they seat.

Using an impact and just blasting them on is simply lazy and, for someone who is openly proud of being so anal-retentive/OCD, I'm quite surprised that you not only find this satisfactory but in fact endorse it shrug


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: OVERKILL] #4978147 01/13/19 06:06 PM
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What OVERKILL said

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4978192 01/13/19 06:57 PM
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I love my 4 torque wrenches.
There are some experienced wrenches out there that can torque a wheel fairly evenly by hand.
My older brother was one.
But most people cannot and no one can match the evenness of a torque wrench used properly.

Just my 2 cents...


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4978217 01/13/19 07:21 PM
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Can't have too many torque wrenches (I have 5). If I can find the correct torque for any fastener on my vehicles, I will use the appropriate wrench. Interestingly, the correct lug nut torque for my current and recent FCA vehicles is 130 Ft Lbs (2014 Ram, 2015 Challenger, 2016 Charger, and 2018 Jeep GC). When remounting wheels, I start by finger tightening the lug nuts as much as possible. I then use my electric impact wrench set at 60 Ft Lbs to do an initial tightening. I finish with my torque wrench and set them at exactly 130 Ft Lbs. I then drive the vehicle for a few miles and check the torque again. About a week later, I check the torque one more time.

TorqueWrenches.JPG
Last edited by SilverSnake; 01/13/19 07:22 PM.

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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4978327 01/13/19 08:59 PM
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Just thought of something else, the coin or mating surfaces of nut to wheel should be clean and dry and not galled or otherwise damaged. Also when using a tourque wrench you will usually notice without looking when the appropiate torque has been reached. Some call this muscle memory but of course no one would ever rely on this---- right?


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: OVERKILL] #4978342 01/13/19 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by StevieC
Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough.


They have a torque spec because they are supposed to be torqued, in sequence, to that spec to provides the proper amount of even clamping force for the wheel/rotor/hub assembly. Any decent dealer will always use a torque wrench on the wheels and will require you to come back in ~150Km to have them re-checked. Torque spec varies massively depending on application and stud size, fastener type...etc. Most dealers also won't let you use the same lug nuts for summer aluminum and winter steel wheels, because of the difference in how they seat.

Using an impact and just blasting them on is simply lazy and, for someone who is openly proud of being so anal-retentive/OCD, I'm quite surprised that you not only find this satisfactory but in fact endorse it shrug

Like I said to Trav, no harm done torquing it. But in the 37+ years I have been around (28 of them learning/working with my dad on the side and full time at times) and the 50+ years my dad has been a licensed mechanic he hasn't torqued the wheel nuts and 0 issues, 0 lawsuits, 0 comebacks. I'm not saying don't do it, but that we haven't and had no issues because we double check each nut a 2nd time with the gun at full power for a short blast.

The tires on my Caravan when I took them off to put my Snow tires on were so tight I had no choice but to use a breaker bar to get them loose on 3 wheels and the 4th wheel was fine with just the impact gun so clearly they weren't torqued properly from the get go. I put them back on with a high torque battery powered impact driver in the method I have described and drove them 10,000km (6K miles) 0 issues. I then pulled them all off at the last oil change and rotated the fronts to back and put them back on and it has been 3,000km and 0 issues and I'm sure it's not what FCA spec is nor was it the case on my Journey either. Also 0 issues. Also 0 issues on my Santa Fe with multiple sets of tires, rotations etc.

Here is what FCA calls for for my '18 Caravan... Which again I assure you mine aren't tightened to this spec I'm sure and no wheels popping off. And again I'm not against Torquing them, adding a step for safety is always a good thing. It's just my opinion and mine alone it's not needed is all. To each their own with what they are comfortable with.

Wheel Torque.png
Last edited by StevieC; 01/13/19 09:26 PM.

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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4978375 01/13/19 09:56 PM
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hmmm, nothing blew up and no lawsuits...the new BITOG gold standard of doing things.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4978383 01/13/19 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Shannow
hmmm, nothing blew up and no lawsuits...the new BITOG gold standard of doing things.

Scary.................


God Bless Our Troops

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4978384 01/13/19 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Shannow
hmmm, nothing blew up and no lawsuits...the new BITOG gold standard of doing things.

And why do engineers have liability insurance?


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'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: SilverSnake] #4978468 01/13/19 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverSnake
Can't have too many torque wrenches (I have 5). If I can find the correct torque for any fastener on my vehicles, I will use the appropriate wrench. Interestingly, the correct lug nut torque for my current and recent FCA vehicles is 130 Ft Lbs (2014 Ram, 2015 Challenger, 2016 Charger, and 2018 Jeep GC). When remounting wheels, I start by finger tightening the lug nuts as much as possible. I then use my electric impact wrench set at 60 Ft Lbs to do an initial tightening. I finish with my torque wrench and set them at exactly 130 Ft Lbs. I then drive the vehicle for a few miles and check the torque again. About a week later, I check the torque one more time.


Your process is incredibly similar to mine thumbsup


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4978479 01/13/19 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by StevieC

Like I said to Trav, no harm done torquing it. But in the 37+ years I have been around (28 of them learning/working with my dad on the side and full time at times) and the 50+ years my dad has been a licensed mechanic he hasn't torqued the wheel nuts and 0 issues, 0 lawsuits, 0 comebacks. I'm not saying don't do it, but that we haven't and had no issues because we double check each nut a 2nd time with the gun at full power for a short blast.


I'd hope there'd be no harm in torquing them, given that's the correct way to do it wink

I learned from a Master Tech in high school (took auto shop) and he was very particular about torquing things, surface prep...etc. All the best mechanics I know that work for Chrysler and Mercedes, as well as my buddy Jon, who has every Cummins cert under the sun, rely on their torque wrench where it is called for and that includes on wheels. It's been a common theme I've observed: Those that are extremely particular about their work tend to sweat those extra details. I'd be interested to hear if cinebarger torques wheels, since his work seems to be top-notch from what I've seen on here.

The issue with over-torquing is that you damage the mating surface on the wheel where the taper of it and the lug nut contact. You also risk damaging the threads in the nuts, which is something I've seen first hand with lads that are big fans of the impact and I wouldn't let near my wheels. It doesn't mean the wheels are going to fall off. It doesn't mean you'll get sued or get a comeback. Most folks aren't that particular and certainly aren't inspecting their wheels or nuts. It works, but it's not the right way, that's why they have a torque spec, and that's why that spec is NOT the same for every vehicle.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4978551 01/14/19 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Shannow
hmmm, nothing blew up and no lawsuits...the new BITOG gold standard of doing things.

And why do engineers have liability insurance?


What's that got to do with anything ?

"Look over there, a bunny !!!"


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4978554 01/14/19 01:30 AM
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Ok, Shannow I could follow up to Frictionless clamping at 40T.
With 0.0001 meter square area,
Tensile stress = 40T force / 0.0001 meter square area will yield a tensile stress of 4000 MPa.
Typical ultimate tensile strength of a metric 8.8 bolt is 800 MPa.
What gives ? ???

Bolts-Basics.jpg
Last edited by zeng; 01/14/19 01:33 AM.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4978561 01/14/19 01:39 AM
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Instead of arriving clamping force of 40T by multiplying 1.6T tangential force with a factor of 25, probably 1.6T should be divided by 25 resulting in 0.064T ?

Last edited by zeng; 01/14/19 01:40 AM.
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Number_35] #4978571 01/14/19 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Number_35
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by MasterSolenoid
Originally Posted by Pelican

Absolutely! The torque is there so that over tightening doesn't occur which could warp the brake rotors.

I agree, and that's why I use a Torque Wrench on Lug Nuts.

Newton Meter converted to Ft. Lbs.
88 NM = 65 Ft Lbs
107 NM = 79 Ft Lbs
--------------------------
200 NM = 147 Ft Lbs

Diameter of Stud would also factor into proper torque.

Tire change places want you to come back after a few days so they can RECHECK the torque.
They know lug nuts may loosen.


Ou r Tuscon spec is exactly 65-79 ft.lbs in the owner's manual! Same as your kia.
I Try not to go over 73-75 but tire shops do it at 80 and won't listen to what you have to say. One of them said that's what their books show and legally they have to torque it to 80. Not a problem just 1 over 79.
147 is not a good idea!
This is interesting. I'm wondering about the European torque specs for the Kia. 80 N-m = 59 ft-lbs, and 107 N-m = 79 ft-lbs. That sounds a bit on the low side. I wonder if these are small wheels - perhaps 14 or 15"?

The range for our Mazda 5 (16" wheels) is 65 - 87 ft-lbs. I tighten them to 80 ft-lbs.

I go in 20 ft-lb increments - that is, 20, 40, 60, and 80 ft-lbs. I check them after about 100 km, but have never found them to come loose after being tightened with this method.

I have had the lug nuts on alloy wheels loosen up when I went by feel rather than using a torque wrench.

As others have mentioned, torquing them tighter than spec can warp the rotors and/or stretch the studs, as well as making the nuts impossible to remove with the tire changing tools in the trunk.



Our Tuscon has 18" wheels spaced for 65-79 ft-lbs.

I assume you go 20,40,60,80 without driving! Never done that. does that produce better results than going straight to 80?
I should read this thread from the beginning .... lol

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4978575 01/14/19 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Intetesting! I recall reading somewhere that if you lube or add anti seize lubricants to the studs, you will have to torque it %15-20 higher because of the lubrication. it made sense to me on the surface. Maybe there is more to it.
Maybe for the trucks, they specify a higher torque due to lubrication ... idk


Nope, wrong way.

lubricating threads REDUCES the torque needed to get the stud stretch to provide the proper clamping force.


Good to know grin2
I always went by the spec and never added lube or anti seize even though I read truckers do it ...

Do you think it's a good idea? I've never seen the tire shops do it either so I never bothered researching.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: zeng] #4978603 01/14/19 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by zeng
Instead of arriving clamping force of 40T by multiplying 1.6T tangential force with a factor of 25, probably 1.6T should be divided by 25 resulting in 0.064T ?


No, it's multiplied, same as rolling a load up a ramp, or putting in a wedge.

Yes, your math is right, I messed that up...no mistake about that, your numbers are right.

As I put in the disclaimers, I did nothing about the friction between the nut and the bearing surface on the wheel...which is soaking up the majority of the torque...probably an order of magnitude more torque than actually makes it to the thread...notice how it gets exponentially tighter as you tighten ?


Was going to mess with it later...but googled it instead.

http://www.pcb.com/Contentstore/mktgcontent/WhitePapers/WPL_21_Fund_Torque-Tension.pdf

10% wasn't a bad guess...


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: OilUzer] #4978605 01/14/19 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
Good to know grin2
I always went by the spec and never added lube or anti seize even though I read truckers do it ...

Do you think it's a good idea? I've never seen the tire shops do it either so I never bothered researching.


I put a tiny film on the thread, and rub most of it off...never the seat area.

Look at the link in the above post, and you can see that EITHER the thread or the under head are makes about a 25% difference in stretch...doing both nearly doubles the stretch (and stress on the bolt)


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4979056 01/14/19 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Good to know grin2
I always went by the spec and never added lube or anti seize even though I read truckers do it ...

Do you think it's a good idea? I've never seen the tire shops do it either so I never bothered researching.


I put a tiny film on the thread, and rub most of it off...never the seat area.

Look at the link in the above post, and you can see that EITHER the thread or the under head are makes about a 25% difference in stretch...doing both nearly doubles the stretch (and stress on the bolt)


Haven't had a chance to check the link and it may answer my question but do you make any torque adjustments if you had to torque it with or without the film.

Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: OVERKILL] #4979318 01/14/19 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I'd be interested to hear if Clinebarger torques wheels


I do....Everytime!!

I've managed a few shops during my career.....It's one of the hardest things to get technicians to do if they're already used to doing it with an Impact. Heard every excuse imaginable. The most popular being "I don't know the torque spec".....So I started printing the spec on the work orders.

In the environment I work in.....If you have the wheel off, You're most likely doing a repair that requires the use of a torque wrench anyway!


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4979348 01/14/19 08:27 PM
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The way I do it:

I'm about 150lb, and my tire iron is about 1' long. So I step on it gently until about half my weight is on each foot, that'll give me about 75lb.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: clinebarger] #4979360 01/14/19 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I'd be interested to hear if Clinebarger torques wheels


I do....Everytime!!

I've managed a few shops during my career.....It's one of the hardest things to get technicians to do if they're already used to doing it with an Impact. Heard every excuse imaginable. The most popular being "I don't know the torque spec".....So I started printing the spec on the work orders.

In the environment I work in.....If you have the wheel off, You're most likely doing a repair that requires the use of a torque wrench anyway!


There's proof without asking for it that most don't do it. Not in Clinebarger's shop clearly and that's fine no objection at adding extra steps in the name of safety. But proof that most he has encountered before he changes them and yet no wheels popping off or they would have scared themselves into doing it before they got to him. But I can't prove that so it probably isn't true. Anyway. Take it for what it's worth.


Last edited by StevieC; 01/14/19 08:52 PM.

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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4979369 01/14/19 08:53 PM
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Stevie man, you gotta relax.
You know as well as everyone else here that 2 braparaps isn't the right way to do it.
It's just not.
You choose the acknowledged incorrect method and get away with it.

That is all.


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Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4979393 01/14/19 09:13 PM
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I never said it was "correct" I made mention before that Torquing is fine. I just shared along with others that we haven't torqued them and used "Good and Plenty" tightness and haven't had a problem.

By all means torque it the correct way. I just don't feel the need and it's all I said.

People here are anal about book spec right down to torquing oil drain plugs as another example and IMO it's not required but by all means if they feel better or want to limit their liability because they run a shop then do so. I did talk about Torquing being necessary for things like head bolts as is the pattern of tightening them down in sequence so it's not like I was saying not to torque things ever!!!!

Here is what I said in response to WyrTwister which started it all... Funny no one jumped on him but they jump on the Amsoil guy who hates Bosch when they have had beefs in the past with me. But that's ok. The more they engage the more I do. I got lots of time. They will wear themselves out.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I have never used a torque wrench on lug nuts , and I am nor a senioe citizen . None have fallen off yet .

^^^ I usually hit them with the pneumatic or impact driver until they stop and then move on to the other ones. Then I go back and hit them with a short burst of the gun again checking each one. Never torqued and never had any issues including bearing/hub issues or stud issues. My dad has done that for decades as well.

Torquing and torque procedures / order has it's place like with head bolts for example but I think there are a lot of places that it's not needed.

Why do they have a Torque Spec then? Well because they need to convey to someone else approximately the force used in some manner but aren't needed above common sense when it comes to things like lug nuts or oil drain plugs for example. Not torquing these things and using reasonable force that is "plenty" but not "over tight" is more than enough IMO.


Originally Posted by StevieC

Like I said to Trav, no harm done torquing it. But in the 37+ years I have been around (28 of them learning/working with my dad on the side and full time at times) and the 50+ years my dad has been a licensed mechanic he hasn't torqued the wheel nuts and 0 issues, 0 lawsuits, 0 comebacks. I'm not saying don't do it, but that we haven't and had no issues because we double check each nut a 2nd time with the gun at full power for a short blast.

The tires on my Caravan when I took them off to put my Snow tires on were so tight I had no choice but to use a breaker bar to get them loose on 3 wheels and the 4th wheel was fine with just the impact gun so clearly they weren't torqued properly from the get go. I put them back on with a high torque battery powered impact driver in the method I have described and drove them 10,000km (6K miles) 0 issues. I then pulled them all off at the last oil change and rotated the fronts to back and put them back on and it has been 3,000km and 0 issues and I'm sure it's not what FCA spec is nor was it the case on my Journey either. Also 0 issues. Also 0 issues on my Santa Fe with multiple sets of tires, rotations etc.

Here is what FCA calls for for my '18 Caravan... Which again I assure you mine aren't tightened to this spec I'm sure and no wheels popping off. And again I'm not against Torquing them, adding a step for safety is always a good thing. It's just my opinion and mine alone it's not needed is all. To each their own with what they are comfortable with.


Wheel Torque.png
Last edited by StevieC; 01/14/19 09:22 PM.

'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: StevieC] #4979432 01/14/19 09:46 PM
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If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4979448 01/14/19 09:57 PM
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StevieC Offline
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This doesn't apply. I never said that Torquing is a fallacy. I said that I don't feel the need. I also went on to say that if folks feel the need then go ahead, nothing wrong with an extra step.
There is a difference.


'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4979458 01/14/19 10:09 PM
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Shannow Offline
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No, you don't understand it (or read the link ???)...your persecution complex doesn't make you right in all these threads...


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: Shannow] #4979462 01/14/19 10:12 PM
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StevieC Offline
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Originally Posted by Shannow
No, you don't understand it (or read the link ???)...your persecution complex doesn't make you right in all these threads...

Again, I never said that not torquing was right. I said I didn't do it because I never felt the need and it was in response to a comment that WyrTwister made along the same lines.

This is just you along with others feeling the need to jump on anything I have to say. It's all good though, like I said I got lots of time... So keep on posting and I'll keep on responding.


'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4979498 01/14/19 11:00 PM
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I don't use a torque wrench on my lug nuts either. Anyone want to berate me? coffee I use an el cheapo harbor freight air impact and then fine tune with a long handled breaker bar. I use a torque wrench on many types of fasteners. I just don't see it as necessary when it comes to my wheels. If I was helping you work on your rig and you wanted your lug nuts torqued I'd have no problem making that happen.

I guess in closing, don't try this at home kids?


05' Ram 5.9 Cummins
11' Infiniti QX56
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: HighbrowHillbill] #4979506 01/14/19 11:11 PM
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StevieC Offline
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Originally Posted by HighbrowHillbill
I don't use a torque wrench on my lug nuts either. Anyone want to berate me? coffee I use an el cheapo harbor freight air impact and then fine tune with a long handled breaker bar. I use a torque wrench on many types of fasteners. I just don't see it as necessary when it comes to my wheels. If I was helping you work on your rig and you wanted your lug nuts torqued I'd have no problem making that happen.

I guess in closing, don't try this at home kids?

Thanks for that... I've gone ahead and updated my signature to be sure no one misunderstands my take on Torquing and the other issue the group seems to take issue with in another thread. Hope everyone can sleep now.


'18 Caravan - 42k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: clinebarger] #4979554 01/15/19 01:44 AM
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CR94 Offline
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
... I've managed a few shops during my career.....It's one of the hardest things to get technicians to do if they're already used to doing it with an Impact. Heard every excuse imaginable. The most popular being "I don't know the torque spec"...
I can believe that. If you get them to do it properly, you must be in a small minority among managers.

Once when I bought tires at a Sears, I witnessed the installer grossly overtighten (as I found later) the lugs with an impact wrench, THEN use a torque wrench to prove they weren't loose. Stupid!


2011 Toyota Prius now at 102K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: tightening torque for wheel lugs [Re: BobGoblin] #4979705 01/15/19 08:46 AM
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I think you've stirred up a hornets nest Stevie and now wish they would go back in the hive.

LOL

A small box of Blue for all of us and 2 Hail Marys

Last edited by cjcride; 01/15/19 08:48 AM. Reason: clarity
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