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Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA #4970309
01/05/19 08:56 AM
01/05/19 08:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
bernie165 Offline OP
bernie165  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
Hello all -
Was wondering if I may enlist the assistance of the experts on here with regards to these reports. My expertise in interpreting UOA's is pretty much limited to wear metals and monitoring for any issues.

The reports are from two newly acquired assets with unknown service history - they are a 2005 and 2005 Bombardier BR180 tractor (snow groomer). Both units utilize a 11 gallon hydraulic system and a 16 gallon hydrostatic system. Fluid spec for both systems in both tanks is ATF Type F (Ford ESW M2C33-F) or ATF Type A, suffix A (GM test, DB236.2).

Wear metals appear to be fine but what I cannot interpret are the fluid properties numbers - what is the oxidation, nitration and acid number indicating for a course of action?
We are also trying to verify what fluid is in these tanks ( due to Type F not readily available, I am suspicious there already has been mixing with some other fluid during past services?). Was hoping from these reports to determine what oil may be in there??
Last, any suggestions on this application if we decide to switch out from not so common anymore Type F - the selling dealer insists we use Type F and I say there are better alternatives as long as we do a complete swap over to that fluid (no mixing). I do know the service guide for these machines calls out this spec: Vickers Vane Pump Wear Test 1,000 psi, 176°F/80°C, (ASTM D-2882).
These units will stay outside in temperatures typically from 0° - 32°F, and will be started outside, no tank warmers.

Thank you very much in advance for your help with this!!!

Bernie

Attached PDF document
B04 BR180 Hydraulic.pdf (29 downloads)
Attached PDF document
Attached PDF document
B05 BR180 Hydraulic.pdf (35 downloads)
Attached PDF document
Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4970335
01/05/19 09:48 AM
01/05/19 09:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
bernie165 Offline OP
bernie165  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
Edit: one is a 2004 and one is a 2005 - sorry

Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4970373
01/05/19 10:23 AM
01/05/19 10:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,609
MI
doitmyself Offline
doitmyself  Offline

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,609
MI
Well, I don't qualify for your requirement of "expert" by any means. When I had a product dispute with a service garage years ago, Blackstone Labs looked at the additives/qualities and stated that my transmission fill was not the same as ATF+3, but they could not go any further regarding identifying the type. One discrepancy I see in your specs is the cst @ 100C. Type F new is around 7.4 +/- and yours ranges between 4.3 and 6.5. Maybe an expert will chime in and inform us if this viscosity drop is normal with use.

I love researching the internet. I could find very little convincing anecdotes that there is a good replacement for Type F (high friction, no friction modifiers). Some suggested an Amsoil product and others suggested "maybe" certain farm UTF fluids.

I'm the type that would follow the dealer's recommendation and simply put in the effort in to get Type F. PM member Molakule for his expertise if he doesn't chime in here. Sorry that I can't help with your other questions about oxidation, etc..

Here's a discussion with one anecdotal success story using Mobil 424 (cst100 = 9.2), which claims on it's PDS that it is a suitable replacement for Type F in commercial equipment:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/snowgroomingtalk/br180-maintinence-t1518.html
https://www.mobil.com/english-us/commercial-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobilfluid-424

Berie, see my EDITS ^^^^

Last edited by doitmyself; 01/05/19 10:42 AM.
Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: doitmyself] #4970382
01/05/19 10:35 AM
01/05/19 10:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
bernie165 Offline OP
bernie165  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
Thank you for the reply and please no one take my expert comment to heart though - I was making point to state anyone but me smile

I am on this forum quite a bit and there is a ton of great info but I find it hard at times to give back given my lack of knowledge in this area......I do learn a lot though so thank you !!!

I do entrust and hope that Molakule does chime in - he is one of many on here that I would regard as the expert.
I appreciate any and all information that anyone is willing to chime in on this topic.

Side note - I ran into the same thing as you did when searching on Type F replacements and again, do not have the knowledge to definitively tell the owners of these assets to switch to________ fill in the blank. There was a previous post on here by another member who specifically asked about Type F substitutes and several (including Molekule) had stated and recommended THF-specifically the schaffers product. It was that post that made me start to think of the idea of switching these units from Type F - and in fact going with that exact product except that my application is different.

Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4970421
01/05/19 11:42 AM
01/05/19 11:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
bernie165 Offline OP
bernie165  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
Thank you doitmyself on the added links - looking at them now!

Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4971057
01/06/19 03:10 AM
01/06/19 03:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,559
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,559
Malaysia
UOA presence of Ca,Mg,P and Zn points to the lubricant being an ATF.

Could it be Type F, IDK but I wouldn't be surprised if it is .

It makes sense for OP to switch out of Type F , other than poor availability issue, is ATF's typically poor shear stability as evidenced in the UOA's.

Doitmyself's suggestion of an UTF in Mobil 424 makes sense for its higher KV40/KV100, never mind its shear stability weakness in hydraulic and hydrostatic transmission applications.

Objectively, I would consider a (monograde) hydraulic AW 46 for the hydraulic systems for its shear stability .

As for hydrostatic transmission applications, I would recommend a (monograde) gear oil in SAE 85 carrying higher KV40/KV100, or 75W85 if low ambient temperature presents an issue.

As for rationalising oil selection should OP intends it, I would pick gear oil in SAE 85/75W85 over hydraulic AW 46.

Just my 2cents

Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: zeng] #4971254
01/06/19 11:12 AM
01/06/19 11:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
bernie165 Offline OP
bernie165  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
Great suggestions Zeng - I appreciate your input and recommendations. One question if I may and please bare with me as this may just be due to my lack of knowledge - from my understanding, the term hydrostatic refers to the principle of operation but in essence, I have two hydraulic systems. Both have pumps and one (the hydraulic system on this groomer) actuates cylinders for movement, the other (hydrostatic transmission as they call it) uses wheel motors for rotation.
So with that, would l still want to put gear oil in? I know the viscosity's overlap, but I have never heard of using a gear oil in a hydraulic system? I have heard of hydrostatic combination drives that contain gears that spec gear oil.

Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4974749
01/10/19 02:50 AM
01/10/19 02:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,559
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,559
Malaysia
Originally Posted by bernie165
from my understanding, the term hydrostatic refers to the principle of operation but in essence, I have two hydraulic systems. Both have pumps and one (the hydraulic system on this groomer) actuates cylinders for movement, the other (hydrostatic transmission as they call it) uses wheel motors for rotation.
So with that, would l still want to put gear oil in?

Yes, you want a gear oil of adequate or higher KV @40*C in this hydrostatic transmission application.
Unlike light/moderate duty auto or manual transmission, this hydrostatic transmission is of low speed high torque heavy duty application.
At similar viscosity grade , I would select a GL5 over GL4 if given the choice, never mind absence of hypoid gear trains.

Quote
I know the viscosity's overlap, but I have never heard of using a gear oil in a hydraulic system? I have heard of hydrostatic combination drives that contain gears that spec gear oil.
You are totally right in raising doubt of gear oil application in a hydraulic system.
Do note the keywords in above: rationalising oil selection , as practised by OEM in selecting ATF for both systems.
I do do oil rationalisation, only in standardising (to thicker) viscosity grades, not standardising oil (application) types , as is practised by your OEM in this case.

Last edited by zeng; 01/10/19 02:57 AM.
Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: zeng] #4975760
01/11/19 07:04 AM
01/11/19 07:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
bernie165 Offline OP
bernie165  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
New York
Ahh Ok - thank you!! , I understand smile

Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4975788
01/11/19 08:11 AM
01/11/19 08:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,559
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,559
Malaysia
cheers

Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4976999
01/12/19 01:14 PM
01/12/19 01:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,750
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
MolaKule  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,750
Iowegia - USA
Putting thick gear oil of 15 cSt in a hydraulic system that originally speced a low viscosity hydraulic fluid (7.5 cSt) is ridiculous and invites corrosion and other ills, such as severe system overpressure and excessive pump wear.

The signatures of the fluids in all four analyses appear to be Type F ATF mixed with other fluids. The flag for me was that sample with 1877 ppm of calcium, which implies a THF was mixed in at some point in time.

If Type F and THF were some of the original fluids, it has sheared to a lower viscosity, as would be expected, as low as 4.3 cSt, but the fluid would have to have had much more running time than 1 hour. I would expect severe shearing at > 25 hours.

Wear metals are low in these specific samples, but if the fluid was changed just prior to you receiving these units, then it tells us nothing about pump, spool valve, and actuator health.

My recommendation for a cold climate snow groomer would be to use Schaeffer's 254 hydraulic oil in grade ISO 46, a partial synthetic with good shear stability over time and good cold weather performance.

https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/130-254-td.pdf

And do as frequent a filter change as is feasible. Why filter changes? You'd be surprised how much condensation develops and how much moisture a hydraulic filter can remove.






Last edited by MolaKule; 01/12/19 01:31 PM.

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Groomer Hydraulic and Hydrostatic UOA [Re: bernie165] #4979185
01/14/19 05:18 PM
01/14/19 05:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,750
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
MolaKule  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,750
Iowegia - USA
And one thing I forgot to add, Amsoil has a full synthetic type F as found here if you must use type F for warranty reasons and it has a pour point of -54F as well:

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g1646.pdf


"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
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