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Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4973760
01/08/19 10:39 PM
01/08/19 10:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 716
MN
14Accent Offline
14Accent  Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 716
MN
Originally Posted by StevieC
400, wow. LOL


You're telling me. I won't lie, there was a strong part of me that wanted to ignore that data. Early OBD isn't known to be reliable, and scanner software isn't perfect. Especially on older vehicles.

The one thing that helped me was the temperature gauge. It read perfectly normal at all times. One of the nice things about those older cars is the instrument clusters are analog and simple. There's almost always a second "dumb" temperature sensor (i.e. a simple 1 wire resistance unit) that feeds the cluster, since data lines were almost non-existent then.

Just to throw another kink in the mix, when I unplugged the failed sensor (for the PCM input), the data stream would read ~ coolant temperature. I have no idea why, or where it got that number, but strange nonetheless.


2013 Chevrolet Volt - Saves enough in fuel to pay for itself!

2003 Cadillac Seville STS - The winter "beater", it uses the Volt's fuel
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4973785
01/08/19 11:27 PM
01/08/19 11:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 232
PEARL River la
tiger862 Offline
tiger862  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 232
PEARL River la
Originally Posted by StevieC
I ordered a replacement coolant temperature sensor in an attempt to fix my annoyance of the Caravan's hot-restart minor stumble. It bugged me because it has done it since new and my Father in-laws which is a 2017 that I have driven enough didn't so while it was nothing to panic about it did bug me. (OCD)

Anyway... I had gapped the plugs, scoped it, read for codes, looked at each cylinder on my dad's scope, and looked at the oxygen sensors and couldn't seem to figure it out.
Finally I decided for the whole $10 USD that a new temperature sensor was worth a shot and it looked easy to change so I thought I would take the chance and try that and if not that I would look into the Map Sensor.

Before I put it in I measured the ohms at room temperature and at 32F (0c) on the new sensor and made a note of it. Then I replaced the sensor and let the other one cool to room temperature over the course of a day and measured its ohms and again at 32F (0C) using cold ice-water (Similar to how you calibrate a kitchen probe thermometer). There was a difference of 61 ohms between the two temperatures so clearly something is a miss in the old one seeing as the new one fixed the problem.

It was also a problem with the coolant reading 200F or more with the old one in place so the ohms could be drastically different between the two sensors at this temperature than just the 61 I could see at the cooler temperatures.

I waited a few days to be sure the problem wouldn't return because of the adaptives re-calibrating things and it hasn't. I went through a complete tank of gas in this time as well.

I'm posting here because I forget who else said they had a minor stumble as well in their 2018 PentaStar equipped vehicle. (My apologies I didn't make a note), and also for anyone else that might encounter the problem.

It now idles in gear and out of gear as smooth as glass and you can barely tell the vehicle is running at the lights it's so smooth and quiet. If it weren't for the injectors pulsing it would be hard to hear the engine at all with the hood closed.

Changes I noticed:

-Secondary ignition wave form looks slightly different from previous.
-Injector Pulse width has changed slightly under fully warmed up conditions compared to previous.
-The timing has changed ~2 degrees under various conditions verified with my dad's equipment and my scan-gauge.
-The temperature gauge doesn't bounce around as much when coasting down the highway as it did before.
-Long Term and Short Term Fuel trim numbers under various conditions as reported by my ScanGauge have changed from their previous numbers.
-During moderate acceleration it feels as though the engine pulls away better almost like it want's to go faster on its own ever so slightly. (Sorry best way I can describe it)

The sensor that came out was an Standard brand sensor and the one that went it was the same Standard brand. Only difference is that the one that went in didn't have the Mopar number stamped on the collar of the electrical connector.

How to change the sensor the easy way
I changed the sensor quite easily while the coolant was warm. (It's located in the front head (Bank 2) in the Caravan on the right side, facing the radiator fan brass in colour with a 2 wire connector).
I took the upper radiator hose off the radiator and tied it to the crankcase fresh air breather line to keep it out of the way. (You don't need to remove the plastic clip holding it to the plennum)
I then took off the overflow bottle which just sits in slots on the radiator by sliding it upward. (Have to take off the hose going to the fill-neck of the radiator first though)
I Then slid the red safety lock on the sensors electrical connector backward using a small flat screw driver the length of my thumb, before squeezing and pulling off the connector.
Unscrewed the sensor using a 3/4" wrench and quickly put the other one in before too much coolant leaked out.
Tightened until just snug and then 1/2 turn to crush the sealing washer the sensor comes with.
I Put the connector back on and put the radiator hose / overflow bottle back in place. Topped up the coolant in the radiator and then somewhat burped the system running it without the cap on the radiator for a few minutes and then took it for a drive to continue the burping process.

Not that a coolant temperature sensor isn't important or doesn't play a big role in a vehicles engine management setup, but I think it's very important in the case of this engine because they run them as lean as possible for a PFI setup and even minor difference in readings between sensors that otherwise seem to function fine can make a big difference as noted above.

Anyway, happy it's fixed and happy to share with others that might be scouring the web for their 3.6L PentaStar Chrysler/Dodge engines in various models of vehicle.

cheers

I am the one that had slight stumble at idle. I noticed that the temp gauge would bounce when it did it so I just assumed air was trapped so I ran heater until hot then shut off. Did this until gauge was smooth and now gauge stays little less than half way. The other stumble I got was shutting down after a hard run of interstate get out of the way driving then pulling over to get a cup of coffee shutting off for 10 minutes then restart with a high idle. Assumed that to be mounts since it does it only on high idle around 1500 rpms and only last a second or two so not enough for me to worry about. Smooth as glass at idle as well as driving along with 27 mpg on the trip we took.


Tiger862
2018 Grand Caravan
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4973786
01/08/19 11:28 PM
01/08/19 11:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
Oh ok.. Sorry I got that a bit wrong. Anyway, good info to keep on file. smile


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 17k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w30
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535k KM (Dead) - AMSOIL SS 0w30
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4973788
01/08/19 11:30 PM
01/08/19 11:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
Oh and pray you never have to change the knock sensors. They are only $16 each but they are royal PITA to get at.

You have to take the plennum off, intake off, oil to coolant heat exchanger off which involves draining the coolant somewhat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNeDsDbPxn0


Last edited by StevieC; 01/08/19 11:30 PM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 17k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w30
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535k KM (Dead) - AMSOIL SS 0w30
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4973810
01/09/19 12:23 AM
01/09/19 12:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,168
PA
Gasbuggy Offline
Gasbuggy  Offline
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,168
PA
Great work OP. I had a similar issue with my old 03 Cobra after I bought it. Seemed like the car just wasn't running strong. Looking at the live feed data and the IAT temp was 366 or so. Took me a while to figure out but a single wire was pinched under the supercharger on the back side against the firewall when the previous owner removed it and reinstalled. Cut, splice, fixed.


Cadillac CTS-V 6.2L 10w30PP
70 Volvo P1800 5w30 Euro L
LR Series III 10w40 VWB
76' 300D Edge 0w40
02 Yukon 10w30 PP
08 Impala 3.5 0w30 AFE
95 Accord - 386k. Mobil 2 RIP
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4974053
01/09/19 09:18 AM
01/09/19 09:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,986
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,986
...
Wouldn’t this be covered under warranty?


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: PimTac] #4974068
01/09/19 09:37 AM
01/09/19 09:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
Originally Posted by PimTac
Wouldn’t this be covered under warranty?


Yes but because it's not storing any pending codes or hard codes and it's intermittent that is hard to reproduce on demand I decided to go after it myself.


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 17k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w30
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535k KM (Dead) - AMSOIL SS 0w30
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4975257
01/10/19 02:58 PM
01/10/19 02:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,057
Buffalo, NY
JTK Offline
JTK  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,057
Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by PimTac
Wouldn’t this be covered under warranty?


Yes but because it's not storing any pending codes or hard codes and it's intermittent that is hard to reproduce on demand I decided to go after it myself.


Yeah, that probably would have been a bear to get a FCA dealer to fix under warranty. Like you say, I've read time and time again where dealers will go the no code, nothing wrong route.

I'm at just under 28K miles with the Pentastar in my Ram 1500. All good so far. Have a brother who liked mine so much, he just bought a new 2019 Ram 1500 classic (old body style) with the pentastar.


2017 Ram 1500 4x4, 3.6L. 2016 Nissan Quest SV (Babe magnet IV)
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4975803
01/11/19 07:32 AM
01/11/19 07:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
Having driven it for a while now and burning another tank and a bit of gas the adaptives must have tuned it further because I can say I have never driven a V6 of any brand that is this smooth. The thing is smoother than my Highlander I had and that engine is ultra refined and smooth.

I honestly find myself watching the tach at the lights to see if it stalled. I think it's a combination of fixing the temperature sensor, going for the 0w30 over the 5w20 it calls for and having the plugs properly gapped which I did when I was trying to troubleshoot this minor hot-stumble annoyance. Oh and it's also running 91 Octane E-0 fuel which might also add a touch to the smoothness factor as it certainly changes the timing running it.


Last edited by StevieC; 01/11/19 07:35 AM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 17k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w30
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535k KM (Dead) - AMSOIL SS 0w30
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4975870
01/11/19 09:19 AM
01/11/19 09:19 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,986
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,986
...
I find myself doing the same with our CX5. At a stop the smoothness of the engine plus the quietness of the cabin push me to glance at the tach. This on 0w20.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: PimTac] #4975874
01/11/19 09:25 AM
01/11/19 09:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
Originally Posted by PimTac
I find myself doing the same with our CX5. At a stop the smoothness of the engine plus the quietness of the cabin push me to glance at the tach. This on 0w20.

PimTac, yeah I hear you... Our friends just bought a beautiful silver CX-5 and they love it. It is quite nice from the 10 minutes I spent in it going around the block when they first got it. They use whatever the dealer puts in, I guess 20wt.

The only reason I decided to try the 30wt was because these engines originally spec'ed a 30wt and while there have been some minor revisions to the engine not much has changed and from what I feel so far it seems to prefer it.

Last edited by StevieC; 01/11/19 09:26 AM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 17k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w30
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535k KM (Dead) - AMSOIL SS 0w30
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4976175
01/11/19 01:58 PM
01/11/19 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,273
Texas
WyrTwister Offline
WyrTwister  Offline
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,273
Texas
Congrats on the coolant sensor replacement ! :-)


Wyr
God bless
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4976238
01/11/19 02:54 PM
01/11/19 02:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 181
Northern Indiana
Skippy722 Offline
Skippy722  Offline
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 181
Northern Indiana
Originally Posted by StevieC
Having driven it for a while now and burning another tank and a bit of gas the adaptives must have tuned it further because I can say I have never driven a V6 of any brand that is this smooth. The thing is smoother than my Highlander I had and that engine is ultra refined and smooth.

I honestly find myself watching the tach at the lights to see if it stalled. I think it's a combination of fixing the temperature sensor, going for the 0w30 over the 5w20 it calls for and having the plugs properly gapped which I did when I was trying to troubleshoot this minor hot-stumble annoyance. Oh and it's also running 91 Octane E-0 fuel which might also add a touch to the smoothness factor as it certainly changes the timing running it.



My 300 was in the body shop for awhile and they put me in a 2018 Nissan Altima 2.5 (I should get an equivalent vehicle, but I digress) I forgot how smooth it was and kept doing the same thing all week lol


2016 Chrysler 300S v6
2012 Dodge Caliber SXT
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4976240
01/11/19 02:56 PM
01/11/19 02:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,078
ON, Canada eh?
I like the 300's. I rented a 1st generation and drove it to Kentucky for our friends wedding. (They now live in Ohio). It was like driving a couch. Our friends here bought one of the 3rd generation ones and while it was nice I found the suspension to be a little more sportier than the refined floaty suspension in the one we rented.


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - 17k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w30
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535k KM (Dead) - AMSOIL SS 0w30
Re: PentaStar Hot Stumble - Fixed [Re: StevieC] #4976242
01/11/19 02:58 PM
01/11/19 02:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 210
GA
Silver Offline
Silver  Offline
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 210
GA
My wife's 2016 GC has a bit of a stumbly idle all the time. No one would notice it but me. It's just a deep, ever so slight jitter. I just figured it's one of those types engines. It runs great although city mileage really sucks at around 12-14. Lots of really short trips though.

It's a loud engine, exhaust-wise. Loudest stock vehicle I think I've ever ridden in.

Got any tricks on checking the trans fluid with no dipstick? ???

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