BlackStone - Oil Manufacturer Doesn't Matter - Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
25,104
Location
ON, Canada eh?
I went back and read the Blackstone study article where they talk about oil brand doesn't make much of a difference if the oil meets the correct specifications and grade as the OEM requires and how it makes little difference in the grand schemes of things in terms of wear over the course of and engines life.

Then when you consider the crowd here running an economy synthetic like Supertech over say M1 or Pennzoil which may have more PAO or uses GTL as opposed to say primarily Group 3 or a combination and might have a stronger additive package, what are some of the reasons for not reaching for the other synthetics over the economy ones?

I'm not talking about extended drain intervals which say M1 AP/EP or Amsoil SS can offer, but more talking about:

Picking say M1 or PUP because of better cold weather performance which seems to be irrelevant by the fact that Blackstone really found no difference between which syn you choose so why stress over the CCS/MRV/Pour Points as one example?

Is there any argument to be said that one might have better seal conditioners in it for the long haul in say M1 or PUP etc. over say Supertech or is there any argument to be said for picking it for some other reason?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is what makes M1 or Pennzoil the right choice over say SuperTech or some other economy synthetic when it doesn't seem to matter in Blackstones findings so long as the specifications are met by the OE when the attributes of the oil from said brand doesn't seem to really matter in the grand scheme of things according to Blackstone.

This isn't a question to start a brand war and none of the brands I singled out I did so because I think one is better than the other. I was just illustrating the difference between using something you bought at an economical price that meets said spec instead of using something a tad more expensive for some other reason and what that reason is that makes it the right choice.

What say you?

(Reference to the Blackstone lab findings: https://jalopnik.com/why-expensive-oil-is-a-waste-of-money-1797241527)
 
Last edited:
I find it a huge deal in the 0w16 or 0w20 oils. I only want Grp 5 or 4 at the very least with big hths. I like overkill and margin or error comfort. Putting all the miles I do;good enough isnt good enough for me. I'm sticking with true synthetic oils regardless of blackstone. But I do support free will to all and people will use what they want,what they must or what the are willing to spend/afford.
 
Originally Posted by Marco620
I find it a huge deal in the 0w16 or 0w20 oils. I only want Grp 5 or 4 at the very least with big hths. I like overkill and margin or error comfort. Putting all the miles I do;good enough isnt good enough for me. I'm sticking with true synthetic oils regardless of blackstone. But I do support free will to all and people will use what they want,what they must or what the are willing to spend/afford.

I could see it in the 0w16 case maybe as needing more study needed to see if Grp-4 or Grp-5 does somehow offer better protection over Grp-3, but in the 20wt's I would probably side with Blackstone because we have these well over a decade now in mainstream use and we aren't seeing imploding engines in masses and most folks use whatever the Quick Lube place uses in conventional over synthetic at that.
 
Last edited:
That's old, some oils have changed their formulas drastically not only additives but big viscosity changes. I think there is something to say with oils that don't have drastic formula changes because of the way the wind blows.
 
Originally Posted by burla
That's why I like m1 over super tech.



What are you talking about? Mobil One has had at least 4 major changes in the last 14 years.
 
As much as I like chasing oils that are great on paper, I believe BlackStone and the LiquiMoly paper posted a couple days ago are correct, especially when combined with some wisdom from dnewton3. Once you've got an oil that meets the required specifications AND do routine maintenance on the recommended schedule for your usage, the only real difference is how much you lighten your own wallet by overspending on fluids.

To my scientific side, the 99% of vehicle owners who do not frequent this site prove this to be true- they care not about moly, or boron, or magnesium, etc levels in their oil, nor that they used an OCOD or Tearolator.... and neither do their engines as long as they somewhat respect the maintenance schedules for their vehicles. There are literally MILLIONS of GM LSs, Toyota 4 cyls, Ford Modulars, etc that have never seen synthetic oil or anything more premium than a Motorcraft or Fram EG filter that have made it over 200k miles.

Sure, we all want to justify our OCD and overspending because we "think" we're extending our vehicles' lifetimes, and some may minimally influence theirs, but not significantly. I still believe that 99% of engines that fail at less than 200k miles only due so because of two factors: first, gross maintenance negligence; or second, gross engineering negligence on the part of the engine manufacturer. No manufacturing can overcome a refusal to maintain the machinery, and no oil can overcome a manufacturing defect or oversight in design.
 
First uoa I had done on my 5.7 hemi I called Blackstone to ask a few questions. One question I asked, is there any certain oil brand that does better with the hemi? Guy I talked to said no, even though all the 5.7s are basically the same they all are different. He said one engine will have lower wear rates with say mobil 1, next guy with the same engine will have better luck with super tech. He said you have to consider people have different driving habits, also if they drive lots of city or highway. He mentioned you can have two of the same engines with the same driving habits and one will always do better with one oil than the other. By the end of our conversation I learned that you can basically use whatever oil brand you prefer. If your worried get a uoa done. There will never be a best oil
 
Hello everyone,

I've been a longtime stalker of the forums and thought I should start to contribute.

After skimming that article quickly, I don't believe that from the data cited, you can come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what oil you use, and the cheapest oil will be fine. The sample is from a single Subaru engine, that did not show results from the cheapest oil, and there's no background on how they're operated, what area they're from, and how they're maintained.

The oils used all seem to be of premium quality, and none are the cheapest on the shelf. The exception being the Valvoline, as I don't see what product line was used. Cheap oils like super tech we're not shown. So without evidence proving the cheapest oil would suffice, I don't understand how that conclusion can be drawn so broadly for all cars.

Also, there are other factors that a more expensive oil like PUP provides, like extraordinary cleanliness of the engine.

Finally, Subaru owners that would be submitting UOA's are probably much more inclined to undertake best practices operation of their vehicles. Such as not flooring it while the engine is cold, etc.
 
Last edited:
Oil and filters don't matter ... time to just reduce BITOG down to the Off Topic and Humor forums.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Oil and filters don't matter ... time to just reduce BITOG down to the Off Topic and Humor forums.
grin2.gif



LOL. Fuel dilution doesn't matter either, per Blackstone.

I have a hard time believing anything a company says that routinely gives its customers fake fuel dilution numbers, and a false sense of security. MHO.
 
Last edited:
1. The Blackstone newsletter found no differences between oils. If an oil meets specs, there's no discernible wear differences between synthetic and conventional--although conventional isn't really conventional any more.

2. Although we call VWB and PYB conventional, at least in 5-20 and 5-30 SN/SN+ oils, they're really semi-synthetic, and not just a little either. Gotta be roughly 40% group III depending on weight.

3. Mobil has come up with Group II (+) base stocks which meet SN/SN+ without group III.

4. I'm using VWB because I can't change my own oil (condo rules and geezerhood). With a coupon I pay under $10 although fees and taxes get it closer to $17. This is a huge savings over synthetics.

5. If I was changing my own oil, I'd be doing group III, as there isn't any real spread between so called conventional and synthetic oils when you buy it in the bottle.

6. I expect in another decade everything will be all synthetic, unless Mobil's new Group II+ stocks represent something new and money saving. Doubt if that will happen, other companies have tried goosed up Group II's before. Synthetic costs no more in the store right now, suspect we will have to find new ways to market different oil price points rather than the dino-syn dichotomy. Won't make a lot of difference in the real world if Blackstone is to believed.

7. Unlike mainstream manufacturers and marketers-- everything from WPP to QT to Mobil, there are some real bad actors there who throw SA oil into quart bottles and push it off on unsuspecting rubes who are looking to save a few pennies. Although I veer towards libertarianism, I think this is the petrochemical equivalent of the tainted meat of a century ago that Upton Sinclair wrote about. Something probably should be done to save the stupid from themselves.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
That's why I like m1 over super tech.



What are you talking about? Mobil One has had at least 4 major changes in the last 14 years.


last one was how long ago? they were ahead of the curve and they stayed there.
 
Mobil claims to be up to sn+ spec since 2010. So I guess there is some value to that. When the next thing like LSPI comes out, would you bet on Mobil to be on top of it first, or whoever is producing supertech synthetic in your region at that time?
 
Originally Posted by lawrencerd
Mobil claims to be up to sn+ spec since 2010. So I guess there is some value to that. When the next thing like LSPI comes out, would you bet on Mobil to be on top of it first, or whoever is producing supertech synthetic in your region at that time?


Problem has first to be identified by the party that is building the engines that are fragile in those areas.

Then they (API parties, including OEMs Oil companies, and additive companies) have to work out how to combat that fragility through modification of their formulations...new patents arise, oils change.

Mobil can't claim that they were SN+ compliant since 2010....as there was no SN+ in 2010. If, somehow a 9 year old jug of oil jagged the LSPI test (for instance), that's not through design...as of November 2018, the ASTM test number hasn't even been allocated.
 
Their specific claim is to be up to the SN+ performance standard since then. Yes, of course the oils change. I'm saying with Mobil you're more likely to be on the leading edge of that change than with generic brands.
 
It's largely a consumer thing because enthusiasts view automobiles with a personal attachment so they justify their motor oil choices almost in a religious nature. As long as the oil meets spec and you follow the recommended OCI, there's diminishing returns going beyond that.

Companies that work with industrial engines of which are FAR costlier just go with whatever meets spec and is cost efficient. The only time they try to do special things oil related are special circumstances like trying to extend the OCI or running at severe conditions (eg. sour burning natural gas). If you wanted to be technically correct, the air filter choice is a much more important factor in long term engine longevity IMO.
 
Originally Posted by Marco620
I find it a huge deal in the 0w16 or 0w20 oils. I only want Grp 5 or 4 at the very least with big hths. I like overkill and margin or error comfort. Putting all the miles I do;good enough isnt good enough for me. I'm sticking with true synthetic oils regardless of blackstone. But I do support free will to all and people will use what they want,what they must or what the are willing to spend/afford.


But do you have sufficient knowledge to determine whether your oil of choice is "overkill" or has a "margin for error"?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top