Recent Topics
Going by HTHS
by JLTD. 02/21/19 02:59 AM
Quick Struts vs Replacing the struts by themselves
by das_peikko. 02/20/19 11:50 PM
Walmart Oil clearance # 2
by GMguy84. 02/20/19 11:14 PM
ST Syn in a TGDI?
by BTLew81. 02/20/19 09:52 PM
The Virus That Kills Drug-Resistant Superbugs
by StevieC. 02/20/19 09:50 PM
Opinion Of Dodge Nitro
by Warstud. 02/20/19 09:26 PM
Cheap first car
by LeakySeals. 02/20/19 09:08 PM
Grand Caravan break in
by pda1122. 02/20/19 09:07 PM
Million mile Lexus
by Skippy722. 02/20/19 08:57 PM
Antioxidant additive overdose
by xomyeusun. 02/20/19 08:50 PM
F15 Arrested Landing at Portland.
by PimTac. 02/20/19 08:43 PM
Why is Mobil 1 0w30x1 rated higher than most
by spiderbypass. 02/20/19 08:14 PM
Castrol Confusion
by PWMDMD. 02/20/19 07:13 PM
Crashed the Volt this morning...
by 14Accent. 02/20/19 06:55 PM
Best place to file online for Fed taxes?
by Vern_in_IL. 02/20/19 06:47 PM
vavoline instant oil change
by silver1. 02/20/19 06:23 PM
Newest Members
alienyouth33, RoyFJ, Intell77, RA_TJ, tiberius54
67294 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
53 registered members (bradepb, AndyB, 97K15004WD, billt460, bbhero, 6 invisible), 614 guests, and 59 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics284,588
Posts4,872,977
Members67,294
Most Online2,548
Feb 16th, 2019
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit #4970956
01/05/19 10:13 PM
01/05/19 10:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Mathew_Boss Offline OP
Mathew_Boss  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Went longer on the Pennzoil Platinum 0W-20 HM. I think it looks good. WIX filter was used for this change. FRAM Ultra went on next for the 7.5k run. The first analysis scared me. I'm happy with the way its gone since I switched to Pennzoil Platinum HM 0W-20.

Attached PDF document
5k Miles WIX.pdf (211 downloads)

125k Mile 11 Dodge Durango 5.7L Hemi PP HM or QSUD 5w20 or 0w20 w/Purolator Boss or Wix XP

40k Mile 2015 Dodge Charger 3.6L Pentastar Pennzoil Platinum or QSUD 0/5W20, or 5W30
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #4970991
01/05/19 11:15 PM
01/05/19 11:15 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,811
Tri State Conservative
Zee09 Offline
Zee09  Offline

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,811
Tri State Conservative
Over the life of this vehicle have you had many mechanical issues?


"If I walked on water, they'd say I couldn't swim."
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Zee09] #4971084
01/06/19 05:04 AM
01/06/19 05:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Mathew_Boss Offline OP
Mathew_Boss  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Originally Posted by Zee09
Over the life of this vehicle have you had many mechanical issues?


Probably more than average though some was my own doing. Altinater, 3rd water pump (my fault), battery, exhausted leak (broken bolt), The transfer case switch got stuck in Neutral because my wife kept putting her purse on the electronic button amd the spring broke. They redesigned the switch to the point I had to replace the Center Console Bezel to install the new larger switch. And the PCV valve went out around 100k miles but that was only like a 5min fix, and the oil filler cap failed (oil was. Coming up through the cap seal). This is the first High Mileage vehicle I have ever owned so i am not sure if that's above average for my miles or not. We like it and it's never left us sit anywhere. It took a while to get oil consumption under control.


125k Mile 11 Dodge Durango 5.7L Hemi PP HM or QSUD 5w20 or 0w20 w/Purolator Boss or Wix XP

40k Mile 2015 Dodge Charger 3.6L Pentastar Pennzoil Platinum or QSUD 0/5W20, or 5W30
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #4974775
01/10/19 04:21 AM
01/10/19 04:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Gasbuggy Offline
Gasbuggy  Offline

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Your engine seems happy. But tbn already 2.5 and Blackstone is predicting 10k runs? Near 6000 SUV with MDS lifters, they shouldn't be looking for extended intervals.

What oil was your other sample?


Cadillac CTS-V 6.2L 10w30PP
Volvo P1800 5w30 Euro L
LR Series III 10w40 VWB
76' 300D Edge 0w40
02 Yukon 10w30 PP
10 Charger Pursuit 5.7L
95 Accord - 386k. Mobil 2 RIP
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Gasbuggy] #4974776
01/10/19 04:27 AM
01/10/19 04:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Mathew_Boss Offline OP
Mathew_Boss  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Originally Posted by Gasbuggy
Your engine seems happy. But tbn already 2.5 and Blackstone is predicting 10k runs? Near 6000 SUV with MDS lifters, they shouldn't be looking for extended intervals.

What oil was your other sample?



The first sample is Valvoline Full Synthetic High Mileage 5W-20, the rest are Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage 0W-20. This engine definitely like the Pennzoil better.


125k Mile 11 Dodge Durango 5.7L Hemi PP HM or QSUD 5w20 or 0w20 w/Purolator Boss or Wix XP

40k Mile 2015 Dodge Charger 3.6L Pentastar Pennzoil Platinum or QSUD 0/5W20, or 5W30
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #4974797
01/10/19 05:36 AM
01/10/19 05:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 364
Chicagoland
Skippy722 Online content
Skippy722  Online Content

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 364
Chicagoland
In regards to your 3 water pumps... that’s about average for your mileage. The issue was so bad FCA extended the warranty on 2013-2017 models to 7 years/unlimited mileage.

Mine failed at 57k, 3 days after I brought it home from the dealer. 2nd one made it till at least 105k when I traded it in. But mine also has the broken exhaust manifold studs.


2016 Chrysler 300S v6
2012 Dodge Caliber SXT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #4974806
01/10/19 06:00 AM
01/10/19 06:00 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,766
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Online content
dnewton3  Online Content

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,766
Indianapolis, IN
There is a lot of variation in the wear Fe. The other metals are low enough to not concern ourselves with and very steady; ignore them.
Regarding the Fe, the first sample was at 8ppm/1k miles; that's a bit high to be honest.
Second sample at 4ppm/1k miles.
Third sample at 3ppm/1k miles.

Is the first sample an anomaly? Don't know this particular engine well enough. More samples need to be taken. These engines (not all of them, but many of them) use that multi-displacement fuel saving concept. I am not intimately familiar with how the system works, but I presume it shuts down cylinders and somehow alters cam/valve actions. I know we've lost many cams to this design at the SO where I work. It's a known phenomenon. The reason I bring this up is because your driving patterns and behaviors will affect the wear in Fe. More steady state driving will actually make the fuel management system shut down cylinders more often. This is not unique to the 5.7L Hemis; I see clear evidence of escalated Fe in many of the Vortec GM engines that use a similar valve deactivation system. However, the Vortect engines don't seem to eat cams like the Hemis do. Some engine designs with reasonably simple architecture have very low wear rates. Both of my 4.6L 2v engines in our Grand Marquis have wear rate of Fe 1ppm/1k miles or so. But they have very simple designs that don't use any fancy tech, and therefor have reasonably steady lube system performance.

My point is that the 8ppm/1k miles is high; the others a bit more "normal" for that Hemi design. Suggesting 10k mile OCIs is not out of the question, but I'd ease up there and not jump right to it. Work you way up methodically using UOAs as your guide.


Also, the water pumps are a consumable replaced on these Hemi engines at a rate far faster than many other brands/types, IMO. But that's a side topic not related to lube AFAIK.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: dnewton3] #4974920
01/10/19 08:34 AM
01/10/19 08:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Mathew_Boss Offline OP
Mathew_Boss  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Originally Posted by dnewton3
There is a lot of variation in the wear Fe. The other metals are low enough to not concern ourselves with and very steady; ignore them.
Regarding the Fe, the first sample was at 8ppm/1k miles; that's a bit high to be honest.
Second sample at 4ppm/1k miles.
Third sample at 3ppm/1k miles.

Is the first sample an anomaly? Don't know this particular engine well enough. More samples need to be taken. These engines (not all of them, but many of them) use that multi-displacement fuel saving concept. I am not intimately familiar with how the system works, but I presume it shuts down cylinders and somehow alters cam/valve actions. I know we've lost many cams to this design at the SO where I work. It's a known phenomenon. The reason I bring this up is because your driving patterns and behaviors will affect the wear in Fe. More steady state driving will actually make the fuel management system shut down cylinders more often. This is not unique to the 5.7L Hemis; I see clear evidence of escalated Fe in many of the Vortec GM engines that use a similar valve deactivation system. However, the Vortect engines don't seem to eat cams like the Hemis do. Some engine designs with reasonably simple architecture have very low wear rates. Both of my 4.6L 2v engines in our Grand Marquis have wear rate of Fe 1ppm/1k miles or so. But they have very simple designs that don't use any fancy tech, and therefor have reasonably steady lube system performance.

My point is that the 8ppm/1k miles is high; the others a bit more "normal" for that Hemi design. Suggesting 10k mile OCIs is not out of the question, but I'd ease up there and not jump right to it. Work you way up methodically using UOAs as your guide.


Also, the water pumps are a consumable replaced on these Hemi engines at a rate far faster than many other brands/types, IMO. But that's a side topic not related to lube AFAIK.




The first sample was a different brand of oil. Thoes amounts concerned me too but the Pennzoil has been much better.


125k Mile 11 Dodge Durango 5.7L Hemi PP HM or QSUD 5w20 or 0w20 w/Purolator Boss or Wix XP

40k Mile 2015 Dodge Charger 3.6L Pentastar Pennzoil Platinum or QSUD 0/5W20, or 5W30
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #4975635
01/10/19 09:56 PM
01/10/19 09:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
dave1251 Offline
dave1251  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
Originally Posted by Mathew_Boss
Originally Posted by dnewton3
There is a lot of variation in the wear Fe. The other metals are low enough to not concern ourselves with and very steady; ignore them.
Regarding the Fe, the first sample was at 8ppm/1k miles; that's a bit high to be honest.
Second sample at 4ppm/1k miles.
Third sample at 3ppm/1k miles.

Is the first sample an anomaly? Don't know this particular engine well enough. More samples need to be taken. These engines (not all of them, but many of them) use that multi-displacement fuel saving concept. I am not intimately familiar with how the system works, but I presume it shuts down cylinders and somehow alters cam/valve actions. I know we've lost many cams to this design at the SO where I work. It's a known phenomenon. The reason I bring this up is because your driving patterns and behaviors will affect the wear in Fe. More steady state driving will actually make the fuel management system shut down cylinders more often. This is not unique to the 5.7L Hemis; I see clear evidence of escalated Fe in many of the Vortec GM engines that use a similar valve deactivation system. However, the Vortect engines don't seem to eat cams like the Hemis do. Some engine designs with reasonably simple architecture have very low wear rates. Both of my 4.6L 2v engines in our Grand Marquis have wear rate of Fe 1ppm/1k miles or so. But they have very simple designs that don't use any fancy tech, and therefor have reasonably steady lube system performance.

My point is that the 8ppm/1k miles is high; the others a bit more "normal" for that Hemi design. Suggesting 10k mile OCIs is not out of the question, but I'd ease up there and not jump right to it. Work you way up methodically using UOAs as your guide.


Also, the water pumps are a consumable replaced on these Hemi engines at a rate far faster than many other brands/types, IMO. But that's a side topic not related to lube AFAIK.




The first sample was a different brand of oil. Thoes amounts concerned me too but the Pennzoil has been much better.



You could try 5W30 a slightly thicker lube will likely cause your iron numbers to drop and will not affect MDS.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: dave1251] #4990645
01/25/19 03:53 PM
01/25/19 03:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Mathew_Boss Offline OP
Mathew_Boss  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Mathew_Boss
Originally Posted by dnewton3
There is a lot of variation in the wear Fe. The other metals are low enough to not concern ourselves with and very steady; ignore them.
Regarding the Fe, the first sample was at 8ppm/1k miles; that's a bit high to be honest.
Second sample at 4ppm/1k miles.
Third sample at 3ppm/1k miles.

Is the first sample an anomaly? Don't know this particular engine well enough. More samples need to be taken. These engines (not all of them, but many of them) use that multi-displacement fuel saving concept. I am not intimately familiar with how the system works, but I presume it shuts down cylinders and somehow alters cam/valve actions. I know we've lost many cams to this design at the SO where I work. It's a known phenomenon. The reason I bring this up is because your driving patterns and behaviors will affect the wear in Fe. More steady state driving will actually make the fuel management system shut down cylinders more often. This is not unique to the 5.7L Hemis; I see clear evidence of escalated Fe in many of the Vortec GM engines that use a similar valve deactivation system. However, the Vortect engines don't seem to eat cams like the Hemis do. Some engine designs with reasonably simple architecture have very low wear rates. Both of my 4.6L 2v engines in our Grand Marquis have wear rate of Fe 1ppm/1k miles or so. But they have very simple designs that don't use any fancy tech, and therefor have reasonably steady lube system performance.

My point is that the 8ppm/1k miles is high; the others a bit more "normal" for that Hemi design. Suggesting 10k mile OCIs is not out of the question, but I'd ease up there and not jump right to it. Work you way up methodically using UOAs as your guide.


Also, the water pumps are a consumable replaced on these Hemi engines at a rate far faster than many other brands/types, IMO. But that's a side topic not related to lube AFAIK.




The first sample was a different brand of oil. Thoes amounts concerned me too but the Pennzoil has been much better.



You could try 5W30 a slightly thicker lube will likely cause your iron numbers to drop and will not affect MDS.



I thought 5W30 made the check engine light go off in 5.7L Hemis with MDS?


125k Mile 11 Dodge Durango 5.7L Hemi PP HM or QSUD 5w20 or 0w20 w/Purolator Boss or Wix XP

40k Mile 2015 Dodge Charger 3.6L Pentastar Pennzoil Platinum or QSUD 0/5W20, or 5W30
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #4990674
01/25/19 04:31 PM
01/25/19 04:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Mathew_Boss


I thought 5W30 made the check engine light go off in 5.7L Hemis with MDS?


Generally, no. User Clevy on here had a Charger that he ran 0w-40 in and was able to get the viscosity code when it was -35C, but that was the only time.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #4991033
01/25/19 11:22 PM
01/25/19 11:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 364
Chicagoland
Skippy722 Online content
Skippy722  Online Content

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 364
Chicagoland
And they run 0w40 in the 6.4 that also has MDS.


2016 Chrysler 300S v6
2012 Dodge Caliber SXT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #5000556
02/03/19 04:41 PM
02/03/19 04:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Gasbuggy Offline
Gasbuggy  Offline

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Hey, FYI, I had a Vendor on the ChargerForums, who makes and sells a custom oil for these MDS Hemi's correct me on the Charger forum. (I just bought a 2010 Charger Pursuit with the 5.7)

For anyone thinking that the system is the same between the different displacement Hemi engines, this is what I was told regarding running the Pennzoil SRT 0w40 in the 5.7

"No, you need a 5w20 for bleed down in .04 seconds and also the VVT."

"The orifices on the 5.7L MDS are different than the 6.4L Hemi MDS orifices and therefore will function differently. One for the 5.7L (5w20) and 0w40 for the 6.4L The thickest we were able to provide on the 5.7L Hemi is 7.5w25 but still had intermittent functionality so we backed it down to 7.5w23 and that functions great in the 5.7L Hemi V8. We have provided oil for these engines well over 14,000 of them with Jed's OCD being one of them both non-eagle and eagle. We kept it the same on the Eagle engine like what you have when they added Variable Valve Timing."


Cadillac CTS-V 6.2L 10w30PP
Volvo P1800 5w30 Euro L
LR Series III 10w40 VWB
76' 300D Edge 0w40
02 Yukon 10w30 PP
10 Charger Pursuit 5.7L
95 Accord - 386k. Mobil 2 RIP
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Gasbuggy] #5000579
02/03/19 05:03 PM
02/03/19 05:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Gasbuggy
Hey, FYI, I had a Vendor on the ChargerForums, who makes and sells a custom oil for these MDS Hemi's correct me on the Charger forum. (I just bought a 2010 Charger Pursuit with the 5.7)

For anyone thinking that the system is the same between the different displacement Hemi engines, this is what I was told regarding running the Pennzoil SRT 0w40 in the 5.7

"No, you need a 5w20 for bleed down in .04 seconds and also the VVT."

"The orifices on the 5.7L MDS are different than the 6.4L Hemi MDS orifices and therefore will function differently. One for the 5.7L (5w20) and 0w40 for the 6.4L The thickest we were able to provide on the 5.7L Hemi is 7.5w25 but still had intermittent functionality so we backed it down to 7.5w23 and that functions great in the 5.7L Hemi V8. We have provided oil for these engines well over 14,000 of them with Jed's OCD being one of them both non-eagle and eagle. We kept it the same on the Eagle engine like what you have when they added Variable Valve Timing."


Given that none of those grades exist, I'd take the rest of it with a massive grain of salt. The part numbers for the MDS components, including the lifters, are identical between the 6.4L and the 5.7L BTW, which you can verify on the Mopar parts shop. The primary difference between the two engines appears to be camshaft and spring pressure. Otherwise, the parts are all the same. The programming is of course different, but that's not a physical thing.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: OVERKILL] #5000606
02/03/19 05:35 PM
02/03/19 05:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,287
Sunny Florida
SteveSRT8 Offline
SteveSRT8  Offline

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,287
Sunny Florida
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Gasbuggy
Hey, FYI, I had a Vendor on the ChargerForums, who makes and sells a custom oil for these MDS Hemi's correct me on the Charger forum. (I just bought a 2010 Charger Pursuit with the 5.7)

For anyone thinking that the system is the same between the different displacement Hemi engines, this is what I was told regarding running the Pennzoil SRT 0w40 in the 5.7

"No, you need a 5w20 for bleed down in .04 seconds and also the VVT."

"The orifices on the 5.7L MDS are different than the 6.4L Hemi MDS orifices and therefore will function differently. One for the 5.7L (5w20) and 0w40 for the 6.4L The thickest we were able to provide on the 5.7L Hemi is 7.5w25 but still had intermittent functionality so we backed it down to 7.5w23 and that functions great in the 5.7L Hemi V8. We have provided oil for these engines well over 14,000 of them with Jed's OCD being one of them both non-eagle and eagle. We kept it the same on the Eagle engine like what you have when they added Variable Valve Timing."


Given that none of those grades exist, I'd take the rest of it with a massive grain of salt. The part numbers for the MDS components, including the lifters, are identical between the 6.4L and the 5.7L BTW, which you can verify on the Mopar parts shop. The primary difference between the two engines appears to be camshaft and spring pressure. Otherwise, the parts are all the same. The programming is of course different, but that's not a physical thing.




Brian has a lot of info, but as far as functionality we Hemi owners have been dancing on this issue since 04. He makes excellent oil in bizarre grades that really holds up per real world analysis. But I know hemis with 200k miles on them running 40w oils. I also own 2. There are only the most insignificant variations in MDS performance from most oils. It simply is not an issue that will ever be noticed unless you analyze things to the 4th decimal place like Brian does.


The real world facts are that new gen Hemis run great on almost any oil.


"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #5000635
02/03/19 06:20 PM
02/03/19 06:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
dave1251 Offline
dave1251  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
Originally Posted by Mathew_Boss
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Mathew_Boss
Originally Posted by dnewton3
There is a lot of variation in the wear Fe. The other metals are low enough to not concern ourselves with and very steady; ignore them.
Regarding the Fe, the first sample was at 8ppm/1k miles; that's a bit high to be honest.
Second sample at 4ppm/1k miles.
Third sample at 3ppm/1k miles.

Is the first sample an anomaly? Don't know this particular engine well enough. More samples need to be taken. These engines (not all of them, but many of them) use that multi-displacement fuel saving concept. I am not intimately familiar with how the system works, but I presume it shuts down cylinders and somehow alters cam/valve actions. I know we've lost many cams to this design at the SO where I work. It's a known phenomenon. The reason I bring this up is because your driving patterns and behaviors will affect the wear in Fe. More steady state driving will actually make the fuel management system shut down cylinders more often. This is not unique to the 5.7L Hemis; I see clear evidence of escalated Fe in many of the Vortec GM engines that use a similar valve deactivation system. However, the Vortect engines don't seem to eat cams like the Hemis do. Some engine designs with reasonably simple architecture have very low wear rates. Both of my 4.6L 2v engines in our Grand Marquis have wear rate of Fe 1ppm/1k miles or so. But they have very simple designs that don't use any fancy tech, and therefor have reasonably steady lube system performance.

My point is that the 8ppm/1k miles is high; the others a bit more "normal" for that Hemi design. Suggesting 10k mile OCIs is not out of the question, but I'd ease up there and not jump right to it. Work you way up methodically using UOAs as your guide.


Also, the water pumps are a consumable replaced on these Hemi engines at a rate far faster than many other brands/types, IMO. But that's a side topic not related to lube AFAIK.




The first sample was a different brand of oil. Thoes amounts concerned me too but the Pennzoil has been much better.



You could try 5W30 a slightly thicker lube will likely cause your iron numbers to drop and will not affect MDS.



I thought 5W30 made the check engine light go off in 5.7L Hemis with MDS?


No it does not if this was the case no motor oil would work. Oil is an dynamic fluid meaning it is constantly changing its viscosity with tempature, time, and ect.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Gasbuggy] #5000655
02/03/19 06:44 PM
02/03/19 06:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
dave1251 Offline
dave1251  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
[quote=Gasbuggy]Hey, FYI, I had a Vendor on the ChargerForums, who makes and sells a custom oil for these MDS Hemi's correct me on the Charger forum. (I just bought a 2010 Charger Pursuit with the 5.7)

For anyone thinking that the system is the same between the different displacement Hemi engines, this is what I was told regarding running the Pennzoil SRT 0w40 in the 5.7

"No, you need a 5w20 for bleed down in .04 seconds and also the VVT."

"The orifices on the 5.7L MDS are different than the 6.4L Hemi MDS orifices and therefore will function differently. One for the 5.7L (5w20) and 0w40 for the 6.4L The thickest we were able to provide on the 5.7L Hemi is 7.5w25 but still had intermittent functionality so we backed it down to 7.5w23 and that functions great in the 5.7L Hemi V8. We have provided oil for these engines well over 14,000 of them with Jed's OCD being one of them both non-eagle and eagle. We kept it the same on the Eagle engine like what you have when they added Variable Valve Timing."[quote]

I do not know what your point because everything here is non-sense.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: SteveSRT8] #5000708
02/03/19 07:40 PM
02/03/19 07:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Brian has a lot of info, but as far as functionality we Hemi owners have been dancing on this issue since 04. He makes excellent oil in bizarre grades that really holds up per real world analysis. But I know hemis with 200k miles on them running 40w oils. I also own 2. There are only the most insignificant variations in MDS performance from most oils. It simply is not an issue that will ever be noticed unless you analyze things to the 4th decimal place like Brian does.


The real world facts are that new gen Hemis run great on almost any oil.


He may make excellent oils (I've never heard of the guy) but making up grades drives me nuts. There are standard grades that cover the ranges of viscosity, making up your own to slot in between the real ones to sound unique is simply silly. Like how do you even qualify a 7.5W? There's only a 5C test difference between 5W-xx and 10W-xx and the ranges are relatively generous shrug

Anyways, the "orifice" point sounds like complete BS. If that were the case, then when the oil was cold, MDS wouldn't work and neither would VCT as that 0.04 second figure is static and viscosity isn't. Since we know that's not the case, that casts a serious cloud of doubt on the validity of everything presented.

It's quite easy to use a visc calc to see how little difference in oil temp is required for a 5w-20 to be the same operating viscosity as a 0w-40. The programming is definitely different between the 0w-40 spec engines and the 5w-20 spec ones, but again, that's just software. Anyone participating in burla's Redline saga is already running a MUCH heavier lubricant, as Redline's 5w-30 has the same HTHS as most 0w-40's and is close to an xW-40 on the KV100 too. I'm guessing none of those guys are complaining their MDS isn't working nor their VCT.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: OVERKILL] #5000863
02/03/19 11:31 PM
02/03/19 11:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Gasbuggy Offline
Gasbuggy  Offline

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Brian has a lot of info, but as far as functionality we Hemi owners have been dancing on this issue since 04. He makes excellent oil in bizarre grades that really holds up per real world analysis. But I know hemis with 200k miles on them running 40w oils. I also own 2. There are only the most insignificant variations in MDS performance from most oils. It simply is not an issue that will ever be noticed unless you analyze things to the 4th decimal place like Brian does.


The real world facts are that new gen Hemis run great on almost any oil.


He may make excellent oils (I've never heard of the guy) but making up grades drives me nuts. There are standard grades that cover the ranges of viscosity, making up your own to slot in between the real ones to sound unique is simply silly. Like how do you even qualify a 7.5W? There's only a 5C test difference between 5W-xx and 10W-xx and the ranges are relatively generous shrug

Anyways, the "orifice" point sounds like complete BS. If that were the case, then when the oil was cold, MDS wouldn't work and neither would VCT as that 0.04 second figure is static and viscosity isn't. Since we know that's not the case, that casts a serious cloud of doubt on the validity of everything presented.

It's quite easy to use a visc calc to see how little difference in oil temp is required for a 5w-20 to be the same operating viscosity as a 0w-40. The programming is definitely different between the 0w-40 spec engines and the 5w-20 spec ones, but again, that's just software. Anyone participating in burla's Redline saga is already running a MUCH heavier lubricant, as Redline's 5w-30 has the same HTHS as most 0w-40's and is close to an xW-40 on the KV100 too. I'm guessing none of those guys are complaining their MDS isn't working nor their VCT.




I read MDS doesn't come on until oil temp sensor sees 120 degrees...

5.7s can throw a code stating incorrect oil, internet is littered with people getting this code. P1521


Last edited by Gasbuggy; 02/03/19 11:40 PM.

Cadillac CTS-V 6.2L 10w30PP
Volvo P1800 5w30 Euro L
LR Series III 10w40 VWB
76' 300D Edge 0w40
02 Yukon 10w30 PP
10 Charger Pursuit 5.7L
95 Accord - 386k. Mobil 2 RIP
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: OVERKILL] #5000932
02/04/19 06:11 AM
02/04/19 06:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Mathew_Boss Offline OP
Mathew_Boss  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 195
Nebraska
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Brian has a lot of info, but as far as functionality we Hemi owners have been dancing on this issue since 04. He makes excellent oil in bizarre grades that really holds up per real world analysis. But I know hemis with 200k miles on them running 40w oils. I also own 2. There are only the most insignificant variations in MDS performance from most oils. It simply is not an issue that will ever be noticed unless you analyze things to the 4th decimal place like Brian does.


The real world facts are that new gen Hemis run great on almost any oil.


He may make excellent oils (I've never heard of the guy) but making up grades drives me nuts. There are standard grades that cover the ranges of viscosity, making up your own to slot in between the real ones to sound unique is simply silly. Like how do you even qualify a 7.5W? There's only a 5C test difference between 5W-xx and 10W-xx and the ranges are relatively generous shrug

Anyways, the "orifice" point sounds like complete BS. If that were the case, then when the oil was cold, MDS wouldn't work and neither would VCT as that 0.04 second figure is static and viscosity isn't. Since we know that's not the case, that casts a serious cloud of doubt on the validity of everything presented.

It's quite easy to use a visc calc to see how little difference in oil temp is required for a 5w-20 to be the same operating viscosity as a 0w-40. The programming is definitely different between the 0w-40 spec engines and the 5w-20 spec ones, but again, that's just software. Anyone participating in burla's Redline saga is already running a MUCH heavier lubricant, as Redline's 5w-30 has the same HTHS as most 0w-40's and is close to an xW-40 on the KV100 too. I'm guessing none of those guys are complaining their MDS isn't working nor their VCT.


I also have a Charger with a Pentastar. I would love to buy 5W30 for both and not have to use two different viscosity oils. Say the engine light does come one. Is there any harm in finishing the OIC before switching back? I don't know I'm brave enough to risk it. I though my wear numbers got much better with making the switch to PPHM (Last 2) over VFSHM (First sample)


125k Mile 11 Dodge Durango 5.7L Hemi PP HM or QSUD 5w20 or 0w20 w/Purolator Boss or Wix XP

40k Mile 2015 Dodge Charger 3.6L Pentastar Pennzoil Platinum or QSUD 0/5W20, or 5W30
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Gasbuggy] #5000974
02/04/19 07:24 AM
02/04/19 07:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Gasbuggy



I read MDS doesn't come on until oil temp sensor sees 120 degrees...

5.7s can throw a code stating incorrect oil, internet is littered with people getting this code. P1521



120F? That's still only 48C, there's a huge visc difference (look at 40C and 100C visc on a PDS) between that and operating temperature. I will check to see when the MDS kicks on in my 6.4L this AM and report back though smile

Yes, 5.7's CAN throw a code, I noted earlier that user Clevy was able to get his Charger to do it when it was -35C, but otherwise, couldn't. He was running 0w-40. As I said, the programming is different between the two engines. That doesn't mean that the hardware is.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #5001058
02/04/19 09:34 AM
02/04/19 09:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
It would appear my MDS started working at 32C (90F) oil temp, though it is harder to tell when it kicks on when it is warm. When the mornings are quite cold it is extremely obvious when it kicks in, likely due to the oil being much thicker. I'll verify the temperature again later this week when we get another cold spell.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Mathew_Boss] #5001710
02/05/19 03:00 AM
02/05/19 03:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Gasbuggy Offline
Gasbuggy  Offline

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,229
PA
Looks like some joined to troll the oil blender a bit on the charger forum. I know it was said that the lifters are all the same for the MDS in the 5.7, 6.1, 6.4 but perhaps this is only because Mopar back spec'd new parts? Similar to how any LS engine specs LS7 lifters now. There may be some truth to suggestions of differences. One thing is for sure, regardless of variables, cams are being dined on by these lifters. GM has the same issues with their AFM.



Below in this article is where I saw the parameters for MDS to kick in.

Posted 10/12/2009
By Greg Montero

In 2005, the Multiple Displacement System (MDS) version of the 5.7L HEMI engine was introduced on the Chrysler 300C and Dodge Magnum. This engine can deactivate four of the eight cylinders, and operate as a 4-cylinder engine during periods of low load, improving fuel economy and emissions. The MDS provides the 5.7L engine the fuel economy of a V6 while maintaining the performance of a V8. The fuel economy improvement is estimated to be up to 20 percent, depending on driving conditions. The MDS operation, invisible to the driver, is fully integrated into the fuel injection system.

"In 2005, the Multiple Displacement System (MDS) version of the 5.7L HEMI engine was introduced on the Chrysler 300C and Dodge Magnum. This engine can deactivate four of the eight cylinders, and operate as a 4-cylinder engine during periods of low load, improving fuel economy and emissions.”

When the MDS engine switches to 4-cylinder mode, the powertrain control module (PCM) controls solenoids that manage special "dual mode" lifters, allowing the intake and exhaust valves to remain closed on cylinders 1, 4, 6 and 7. There is one solenoid for each cylinder (two lifters). The PCM also deactivates the fuel injectors for these cylinders when in the 4-cylinder mode.

When the MDS solenoids are in the "off" state (8-cylinder mode), they supply oil pressure of approximately 3 psi to the lifter bores. This lifter oil keeps the bores lubricated and prevents air from entering the system. When the solenoids are activated, oil pressure of 16 psi or greater is supplied to the lifters and the engine enters the 4-cylinder mode.

When the special lifters are supplied high oil pressure by the solenoid, pins inside the lifter move inward. This unlocks the outer portion of the lifter and allows it to move independently from the center portion of the lifter. The camshaft can move the outer portion of the lifter without transferring motion to the inner portion of the lifter.

8-cylinder mode: Solenoids are in the "off" state (de-energized). Minimal oil pressure is applied to the special lifter. They are working normally in this mode.

4-cylinder mode: Solenoids are in the "on" state (energized). High oil pressure is applied to the special lifters and the lifters become inactive and essentially the four pistons are along for the ride. Both valves are closed.

The PCM will activate the 4-cylinder mode when the following enabling conditions are met:

Low engine load

1200 to 3000 rpm

Vehicle speed between 12 mph and 90 mph

Battery voltage from 9 volts to 15 volts

Oil pressure from 15 psi to 147 psi

Oil temperature greater than 120 F

Engine coolant temperature from 158 to 248 F

Ambient temperature from 14 F to 248 F

No throttle position sensor or MDS faults

The PCM deactivates solenoids one cylinder at a time in the firing order. If the system is "on" for long periods of time, such as a long flat road with no stopping, the system will return to the 8-cylinder mode approximately every six minutes to maintain engine temperature. The PCM will also unlock the torque converter before the transition, to minimize the effect on driveability.

The oil temperature sensor used for this system is a two-wire sensor, negative temperature coefficient, like the sensors for engine coolant temperature or intake air temperature (IAT). The PCM uses this input - along with oil pressure, load and rpm - to calculate oil viscosity and flow rate. This information is critical to MDS operation.

It's important to know this engine uses 5W-20 engine oil. If the wrong oil is used, fault code P1521 can be set, and the vehicle may show symptoms of a shudder - similar to a torque converter shudder - when the MDS system is activated and deactivated. Other symptoms may include MDS performance codes or engine misfire codes.

Before spending a lot of time with these codes, use the vehicle service history to find out what type of oil is in the engine. Because this is not always possible, the next best thing is to replace the oil (and filter) with 5W-20. This may have to be done twice to fully restore the system back to normal. Oil sludging, restricted oil passages or lifter contamination can also cause problems with this system.

Quick facts:

Each MDS solenoid has about 12 ohms of resistance. When the solenoid is activated by applying 12 volts to it, an audible "click" can be heard from under the intake manifold. This test can be done with a jumper wire or by using the actuator test mode (ATM) mode of a compatible scan tool.

If the solenoid is mechanically stuck in the "on" position, the result will be one dead cylinder.

Hopefully, this information will be helpful if one of these systems shows up in your shop."


Cadillac CTS-V 6.2L 10w30PP
Volvo P1800 5w30 Euro L
LR Series III 10w40 VWB
76' 300D Edge 0w40
02 Yukon 10w30 PP
10 Charger Pursuit 5.7L
95 Accord - 386k. Mobil 2 RIP
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: Gasbuggy] #5001758
02/05/19 07:11 AM
02/05/19 07:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,669
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Gasbuggy
Looks like some joined to troll the oil blender a bit on the charger forum. I know it was said that the lifters are all the same for the MDS in the 5.7, 6.1, 6.4 but perhaps this is only because Mopar back spec'd new parts? Similar to how any LS engine specs LS7 lifters now. There may be some truth to suggestions of differences. One thing is for sure, regardless of variables, cams are being dined on by these lifters. GM has the same issues with their AFM.


That's really unfortunately that folks have gone after the blender. Regardless of my opinion on the information presented in this thread, I still think that's pretty low frown

Thank you for the quote! I am going to guess that either the 6.4L operating parameters are different or Chrysler has updated the system since 2009 when the article was authored. I say that because I've observed MDS operate:
- When the oil temp was below 120F
- When the ambient temp was below 14F, which has been the case several times in the last few weeks and the system still kicks in (and is noticeable when it is that cold as I noted earlier) not far from my house on my way to work.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: 11 Dodge Durango 5.7 5k Oil 131k Unit [Re: OVERKILL] #5002474
02/05/19 08:54 PM
02/05/19 08:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
dave1251 Offline
dave1251  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,528
Maricopa, Arizona
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Gasbuggy



I read MDS doesn't come on until oil temp sensor sees 120 degrees...

5.7s can throw a code stating incorrect oil, internet is littered with people getting this code. P1521



120F? That's still only 48C, there's a huge visc difference (look at 40C and 100C visc on a PDS) between that and operating temperature. I will check to see when the MDS kicks on in my 6.4L this AM and report back though smile

Yes, 5.7's CAN throw a code, I noted earlier that user Clevy was able to get his Charger to do it when it was -35C, but otherwise, couldn't. He was running 0w-40. As I said, the programming is different between the two engines. That doesn't mean that the hardware is.



The tempature explains a lot because I could not have the engine throw a code. I don't get temps around here that low. If it is 40F folks around here get parkas and scarfs out of the attic. You should have seen the poor guy from Morelos he broke out the Artic cold weather gear because it was 36F at 5AM.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

Moderated by  ekpolk 

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™