Recent Topics
2018 Mazda 3 SkyActive 2.0
by wolf_06. 01/20/19 12:41 AM
Kendall nitro 70
by Bullwinkle007. 01/19/19 11:11 PM
Dexron HP
by Snagglefoot. 01/19/19 11:11 PM
Ruger American 22 Mag
by TiredTrucker. 01/19/19 11:06 PM
Prestone Dex Cool vs Carquest Dexcool
by A_User55555. 01/19/19 11:05 PM
FRAM end cap differences EG and TG vs XG
by wemay. 01/19/19 09:25 PM
Valvoline modern Engine
by Pinoak. 01/19/19 09:02 PM
30 Vintage Photos
by StevieC. 01/19/19 08:23 PM
Low mileage, when to change oil?
by Metfanant. 01/19/19 08:05 PM
Filter with bypass when OEM has built-in bypass
by rubberchicken. 01/19/19 07:43 PM
Barrett Jackson 2019 Pics
by Nick1994. 01/19/19 05:41 PM
What do y'all do with old car parts?
by qdeezie. 01/19/19 05:11 PM
Diagnosing catalytic converters.
by Tlhfirelion. 01/19/19 04:20 PM
Oil recommendations for GM Vortec 8100
by Dudemanmaximus. 01/19/19 04:14 PM
Leaf Spring Questions- Lots of Questions
by George7941. 01/19/19 04:02 PM
Am I being out of line?
by Chris142. 01/19/19 04:00 PM
Some good modern rock songs
by 53' Stude. 01/19/19 03:51 PM
06 Pathfinder O2 sensor voltage sensor 1
by Bluestream. 01/19/19 03:50 PM
Newest Members
dougway, Jetsfan421, Fordman420, 72sbc, ejmiller
66982 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
35 registered members (CleverUserName, carlprop, 1.8Tango, BobGoblin, 69GTX, 3 invisible), 917 guests, and 30 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics296,864
Posts4,960,361
Members66,982
Most Online2,688
Jan 19th, 2019
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 #4970025
01/04/19 07:31 PM
01/04/19 07:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
A_Harman Offline OP
A_Harman  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
This UOA has been almost 3 years in the making.
Once the Camaro reached the point where it would use a whole quart of oil in a 30-minute lapping session, I decided to retire it from track use, as of October 2016.
But it still runs fine on the street, so I put it on the "perpetual oil change" regimen, to use up the 3 gallons of SN Pennzoil Ultra I had stashed. I changed the filter at 260k.

Polaris Comments:
Flagged data does not indicate an immediate need for maintenance action. Continue to observe the trend and monitor
equipment and fluid conditions. BEARING/BUSHING METAL is at a MODERATE LEVEL: Base Number is MODERATELY LOW. As
Base Number depletes, the ability to neutralize acids is diminished. OXIDATION is at a MODERATE level, which may be due to
extended drain interval or high operating temperature. FLAGGED ADDITIVE levels indicate slight LUBE MIXING; Lubricant and
filter change acknowledged.

Overall, I think I ran it too long based on the high corrected Iron level, and low TBN. I now have VML 5w30 in it, and will do 10k-mile OCI's and see how it likes it.


Camaro-UOA.PNG
Last edited by A_Harman; 01/04/19 07:43 PM.

1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970031
01/04/19 07:50 PM
01/04/19 07:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,466
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,466
Waco, TX
From Aug 2014 to Dec 2018 - This is one sump fill, that lasted 4+ years and 52,000 miles?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970034
01/04/19 07:58 PM
01/04/19 07:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,015
Connecticut
69GTX Online content
69GTX  Online Content
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,015
Connecticut
So if I read this right, the filter went 42K miles and a fresh quart of oil (from blow by) was added every 3700 mi over the past 52K miles?

Last edited by 69GTX; 01/04/19 07:58 PM.

----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970063
01/04/19 08:40 PM
01/04/19 08:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
A_Harman Offline OP
A_Harman  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
No. I stopped doing UOA's after Aug '14, but did not stop doing oil changes. The last oil change was March, 2016.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970067
01/04/19 08:45 PM
01/04/19 08:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 625
A Warm place to live in
berniedd Offline
berniedd  Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 625
A Warm place to live in
In Feb2013 to July 2013, you ran only 2000 miles, you had to add 2 quarts of oil, and yet the the iron, aluminum, lead and tin skyrocketed while the TBN took a dive. Why is this?

Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: berniedd] #4970082
01/04/19 08:58 PM
01/04/19 08:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
A_Harman Offline OP
A_Harman  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
Originally Posted by berniedd
In Feb2013 to July 2013, you ran only 2000 miles, you had to add 2 quarts of oil, and yet the the iron, aluminum, lead and tin skyrocketed while the TBN took a dive. Why is this?


The car was sitting outside my mechanic's shop for 3 months waiting for him to rebuild the transmission. He left the exhaust system open, and I assumed this allowed a couple of cylinder bores to rust. If you go back to my posted UOA at the time, there is discussion on it.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970189
01/04/19 11:35 PM
01/04/19 11:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,956
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,956
'Stralia
I think that you are being a bit harsh on this analysis.

Remember, that the oil starts off with zero PPM iron, so the quart lost in the first interval contains nearly none...

I've thrown together a couple of curves to demonstrate...1,500 mile intervals got me closest to 14 quart makeup with simple math. Adjusted the "iron per interval" to get it close(ish) to your end.

First curve is oil consumption similar to yours...funny, how linear wear rate with oil consumption (and make-up) "appears" to wear more in the first interval, then get better...hmmm...
Second curve is straight linear, no consumption, indicating that your corrected value as a straight multiplier is overly pessimistic by around 15%...

IRon Level with consumption.jpgIron Level no consumption.jpg

The Dunning Kruger effect is real.
The Galileo Fallacy is real.
Roll them into one neat package and crackmeup crackmeup crackmeup
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970197
01/04/19 11:47 PM
01/04/19 11:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,956
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,956
'Stralia
Part two of my thought bubble hinges on the two P.U. fills being from similarly sourced oil.

If the oil transport to the exhaust (loss) is all droplets, through the PCV, then the above curves hold...the transport oil will be carrying whatever the level of contaminants in the sump is at the same ration.

Papers seem to indicate that in the ring belt, the volatiles make it into the chamber, leaving more highly additised oil remaining in the drain back oil.

IF your two P.U. fills were from similar batches in time (stash), the concentration of the additive elements increasing over time would indicate that considerable of the transport mechanism is in the ring belt...thus the concentration factors both in my oil consumption curve, and your straight multiplier are also excessively negative.

In short, I think that your rig is good for perpetual oil changes, with 10k filter changes.

Please, at 10k, pull a sample, and not the oil, and decide to move on from there.


The Dunning Kruger effect is real.
The Galileo Fallacy is real.
Roll them into one neat package and crackmeup crackmeup crackmeup
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: Shannow] #4970208
01/05/19 12:21 AM
01/05/19 12:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,753
Western S.C.
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,753
Western S.C.
Originally Posted by Shannow
... Papers seem to indicate that in the ring belt, the volatiles make it into the chamber, leaving more highly additised oil remaining in the drain back oil. ...
Might that separation effect be less significant in an engine consuming oil so rapidly? (... assuming those papers were about less severely worn engines)


2011 Toyota Prius now at 95K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: Shannow] #4970534
01/05/19 01:09 PM
01/05/19 01:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
A_Harman Offline OP
A_Harman  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
Originally Posted by Shannow
I think that you are being a bit harsh on this analysis.

Remember, that the oil starts off with zero PPM iron, so the quart lost in the first interval contains nearly none...

I've thrown together a couple of curves to demonstrate...1,500 mile intervals got me closest to 14 quart makeup with simple math. Adjusted the "iron per interval" to get it close(ish) to your end.

First curve is oil consumption similar to yours...funny, how linear wear rate with oil consumption (and make-up) "appears" to wear more in the first interval, then get better...hmmm...
Second curve is straight linear, no consumption, indicating that your corrected value as a straight multiplier is overly pessimistic by around 15%...



Good stuff!
An adjustment to the first graph would be the sump volume in the Camaro is 5.5 qts, so the cumulative Iron concentration would be:

Which puts the concentration at the end of interval even closer to 51.
Then goal-seeking the Iron concentration rate to get exactly 51 gives 9.75 ppm.
This makes the wear rate 6.5 ppm/kmile, which is pretty high.

Iron-concentration.PNGIron-concentration.PNG
Last edited by A_Harman; 01/05/19 01:13 PM.

1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970543
01/05/19 01:19 PM
01/05/19 01:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,168
PA
Gasbuggy Offline
Gasbuggy  Offline
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,168
PA
That's awesome!


Cadillac CTS-V 6.2L 10w30PP
70 Volvo P1800 5w30 Euro L
LR Series III 10w40 VWB
76' 300D Edge 0w40
02 Yukon 10w30 PP
08 Impala 3.5 0w30 AFE
95 Accord - 386k. Mobil 2 RIP
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970556
01/05/19 01:45 PM
01/05/19 01:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,477
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,477
Cincinnati, OH, USA
I would love to see the inside of your Ultra, if you still have it, to see how the media did (blinded off or not?).


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4970575
01/05/19 02:09 PM
01/05/19 02:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,218
Pennsylbammyvania
dailydriver Offline
dailydriver  Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,218
Pennsylbammyvania
It's really cool that your 4th gen LS1 is still chugging along at that mileage! thumbsup

My '00 Z28 finally dropped a lifter @ ~235K (HARD!) miles, and, as you know, once those needle bearings, and other lifter bits circulate in the sump, it is basically a FULL rebuild, since the heads have to come off anyway for even the lifters to be changed out.

Since I did not have access to either the tools, nor the facilities necessary to do this (and I was getting quotes of upwards of $10K to do the full job, even with a used stock LS1), I sold it as it was (and YES, I DID inform the buyer, and he could hear the clacking from a block away anyway wink ), and bought the little rally rocket in my sig instead. drive


2016 Ford Fiesta ST 14K miles
Ravenol DXG 5W-30
Amsoil Ea15K51 filter
Ravenol MTF-2 in the IB6 transaxle
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: dailydriver] #4970664
01/05/19 03:37 PM
01/05/19 03:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
A_Harman Offline OP
A_Harman  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,137
Michigan
Originally Posted by dailydriver
It's really cool that your 4th gen LS1 is still chugging along at that mileage! thumbsup

My '00 Z28 finally dropped a lifter @ ~235K (HARD!) miles, and, as you know, once those needle bearings, and other lifter bits circulate in the sump, it is basically a FULL rebuild, since the heads have to come off anyway for even the lifters to be changed out.

Since I did not have access to either the tools, nor the facilities necessary to do this (and I was getting quotes of upwards of $10K to do the full job, even with a used stock LS1), I sold it as it was (and YES, I DID inform the buyer, and he could hear the clacking from a block away anyway wink ), and bought the little rally rocket in my sig instead. drive


When the oil consumption went up a few years ago, I wanted to do an LS3 swap and keep tracking it. But underbody rust from 16 Michigan winters is making me think twice about that.
It can probably go for a few more years in daily driver service. I hope you haven't jinxed it by pointing out how yours failed! wink


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: A_Harman] #4974334
01/09/19 02:55 PM
01/09/19 02:55 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,180
Ocala, Florida
racin4ds Offline
racin4ds  Offline
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,180
Ocala, Florida
I'm amazed to see that era LS1 still alive especially being beat on! lol I had many friends in my younger years with those fancy LS1 cars trying to outrun my mustangs, they were faster on the strip but never lasted much past 50k miles. They burnt tons of oil and smoked all the time, while my lowly little 302 and 4.6 motors took a beating every weekend at the track and still didn't use a drop of oil.

It was always a fun rivalry, I had one friend with a factory "freak" 02 Camaro M6 car that would run 12's in stock trim. He was a demon on the shifter but man that thing was fast. I think that motor made it to just shy of 30k miles before it blew up!


Just say NO to thin oils and M1!
05 F350 Powerstroke
05 Hyundai Tucson
08 Legacy GT
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: racin4ds] #4974370
01/09/19 03:36 PM
01/09/19 03:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,218
Pennsylbammyvania
dailydriver Offline
dailydriver  Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,218
Pennsylbammyvania
Originally Posted by racin4ds
I'm amazed to see that era LS1 still alive especially being beat on! lol I had many friends in my younger years with those fancy LS1 cars trying to outrun my mustangs, they were faster on the strip but never lasted much past 50k miles. They burnt tons of oil and smoked all the time, while my lowly little 302 and 4.6 motors took a beating every weekend at the track and still didn't use a drop of oil.

It was always a fun rivalry, I had one friend with a factory "freak" 02 Camaro M6 car that would run 12's in stock trim. He was a demon on the shifter but man that thing was fast. I think that motor made it to just shy of 30k miles before it blew up!



Mine ran 12.6 @114 MPH on just a lid, Eaton Posi limited slip, Pro 5.0 shifter, SLP cat back exhaust system, and drag radials, (but also with a launch/60' BUTCHERING; road race type suspension, and BIG Strano front sway bar, and optional size, 17x9 and 275/40-17 front wheels/tires) and yes, still managed to make it to 235K miles. wink drive


2016 Ford Fiesta ST 14K miles
Ravenol DXG 5W-30
Amsoil Ea15K51 filter
Ravenol MTF-2 in the IB6 transaxle
Re: Pennzoil Ultra, 22k miles, 2002 Camaro Z28 [Re: racin4ds] #4974444
01/09/19 05:00 PM
01/09/19 05:00 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,295
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,295
Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by racin4ds
I'm amazed to see that era LS1 still alive especially being beat on! lol I had many friends in my younger years with those fancy LS1 cars trying to outrun my mustangs, they were faster on the strip but never lasted much past 50k miles. They burnt tons of oil and smoked all the time, while my lowly little 302 and 4.6 motors took a beating every weekend at the track and still didn't use a drop of oil.

It was always a fun rivalry, I had one friend with a factory "freak" 02 Camaro M6 car that would run 12's in stock trim. He was a demon on the shifter but man that thing was fast. I think that motor made it to just shy of 30k miles before it blew up!


That wasn't a factory freak, I had many friends with LS1 F-bodies back then that ran in the 12s in stock trim. Mine ran a 13.08 at 106mph in stock trim and with just a few free modifications, drag radials and 4.10 gears it ran 12.6s at 111 mph.

I didn't know anyone that blew up their LS1 at low mileage (and the higher mileage ones that blew up were always nitrous related)


2018 Corvette, 9k, M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold
2006 Civic EX Coupe, 148k, PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive,111k, GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra

Page 1 of 2 1 2

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™