2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30

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Originally Posted by Impatient
Bumping the thread to acknowledge some interesting twists this has taken with the premium fuel recommendation. OA has agreed to retest the sample, though I doubt this will "fix" the problem. I will look into the premium fuel aspect; after all, I've been running premium in the Subaru, at mfgr's recommendation. So what if this costs an extra $400/yr.🤬. I am hoping the lead is an anomaly. There are several ways to keep the oil more robust. Castrol-, Mobil-, or Pennzoil-Euro might also help a tad with starting viscosity, although it is debatable if I should deviate from Ford recommended spec. They don't allow for anything thicker than 5w30 in the manual (for the EB). I suppose I could argue that the Pennzoil 5w30 is just as good/better, but I had hoped to keep this rig for 120k+ miles, ie my goal is far beyond getting to the 60k warranty expiration. Maybe 5w30 is just not good enough.

Impatient, maybe try QSUD 5w30 I believe it conforms to the Ford spec, it is also Dexos1 gen2 sn plus. Viscosity @100c is 11.64, VI 170, with higher than normal Moly. This paired with a premium grade gas may help with the fuel dilution and hopefully bring down the lead level somewhat also. Try a 5k run with this combo and another UOA. You seem intent on using a 5w30, so this is why I didn't recommend a 40 weight. Stay the course a little longer and just maybe things will look up.. Fingers are crossed, good luck.
 
Definitely replicate the current UOA to confirm results. THEN step up to premium and see how she does. I'm really hoping this advice will stand the test and show positive results. Your vehicle is a good candidate.
 
Controlled Experimentation is one thing. Preserving my motor is another ( with all due respect, Artem...I see your point, but am nervous about being the guinea pig). This current fill will probably endure 3 consecutive days of 700 mile runs, and then short trip usage with altitude changes and dirt roads...Not sure how short an OCI I will do.

In retrospect, it think the PP is just too thin in a known diluter engine (see below). I already deviated from a perfect controlled experiment because I filled with PUP instead of PP.

I'm probably flailing but I am entertaining a few oil options:

1) drain and toss. (I don't really like these options)
a) Refill with Motorcraft, and try to make it Ford's problem as much as possible. Besides, MC does have a higher Kv100 spec at 10.8(?)
b) Refill with Castro Euro, preferably 0w30, but possibly 0w40. Out of Ford spec, but well thought of, and thicker, with better HTHS
c) refill with PP, which I see no advantage to, except for the scientific rigor.

2) partially drain 1/2 and keep the drained oil for next time. Refill 1/2 with one of these:
a) Pennzoil Euro 0w40 or
b) Pennzoil Euro L 5w30, which local Walmart has. Both of these have considerably higher starting kv100 specs than either PP or PUP.
c) QSUD 5w30 with its considerably higher Kv100.

I didn't realize how low the starting kv100 readings were from VOA's. PP is only like 9.6...so yes it sheared, or diluted, down to 8.2, but mathematically, that is not as dramatic as dropping from their stated spec (10.2?). Likewise a VOA of PUP (maybe pre-Pureplus) showed a 9.8 kv100, not all that close to its advertised 10.3 kv100 either. The Euro L had a kv100 of 12.4, the QSUD 11.3, and the Euro 0w40 probably over 13. All these are from memory, but I'm close. My point is, ASSUMING mixing different oil might have ROUGHLY an average of the 2 oils mixed kv100 (and kv40), and because they are all SOPUS ( except the Motorcraft & Castrol from options 1a & 1b above), they might play nice together. QSUD is another ILSAC oil, whereas the Euro oils are not. I can't find squat in BITOG about specifically mixing ILSAC with A3/B4 (or C3) oils. Mixing Plat Euro oils with the PUP theoretically might be preferable since they are all GTL (not sure if they are from the same GTL base).
 
Oh come on, messing around with draining half, then storing it and reusing it many months later in order to save that, $10 worth of used oil seems silly to me.

Dump it and consider it a mini flush. The engine will like it.

Pour in stronger oil and enjoy the ride. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Forget the OEM spec. It's obviously designed to give you 0.1mpg increase over engine protection and nobody at the dealership will care about your engine after the warranty exprires, so you're on your own regardless.
 
You're right, You're right. I've become deranged by this. I wish I could delete my last post; maybe the whole friggin thread. But, NO oil mixing. You're right. So, the current fill stays in, at least for the winter. It's Pennzoil's highest recommendation for this vehicle. It's not like I was putting conventional SuperTech in it at 15k intervals. I was just trying to put the very best non-foo-foo oil in it that I could, without going out of spec, at a very conservative 6k interval. I hope for Ford's sake, and mine (and Pennzoil's), this motor lasts for 150k miles. Given how I dote over my vehicles, if it doesnt, it's a true P.O.S.
 
She should be alright. She's young. Many will say it's still breaking in, LOL.

I had a 98 Camry that showed abnormal bearing wear regardless of what oil I used. Some said it wouldn't last and I'd start getting knock soon. Well... it's been another 120k and many many years and she's still kicking. Still producing abnormal copper and lead wear, compared to averages. 330k on it now. All original.

Your plan sounds good. Use up the Lube currently in there and then try something thicker to see if it helps. Otherwise... you've got a lemon with what seems like marshmallows for bearings.

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Originally Posted by Artem
She should be alright. She's young. Many will say it's still breaking in, LOL...... Otherwise... you've got a lemon with what seems like marshmallows for bearings.

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I'm not sure how to take that
 
I am running the Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30. I just ran one oil change interval, after switching brands. The next oil change, I will send in an analysis to see how it compares with the previous oil I was using. I have already sent 4 samples for analysis, & also having a slight fuel dilution issue. Seems to be staying in the 3.4-4% range over the last 3 samples, but the first initial sample was over 8%.

With fuel dilution present, I have been running around 3000 mile OCI.
 
UOA is trend analysis. One sample does not show a problem exists, especially when it comes to wear metals. My other issue with UOA, in most cases there really is nothing you can do about an issue, except maybe change the oil earlier, but then, that is not really a solutions is it. In just about all cases, IMO, the engine just goes on to live a happy life regardless of wear numbers. We over analyze!
 
Originally Posted by Spector
UOA is trend analysis. One sample does not show a problem exists, especially when it comes to wear metals. My other issue with UOA, in most cases there really is nothing you can do about an issue, except maybe change the oil earlier, but then, that is not really a solutions is it. In just about all cases, IMO, the engine just goes on to live a happy life regardless of wear numbers. We over analyze!


I agree that it's not time to panic, but continue with analysis and try to determine root cause.

Regarding the use of UOA data, that simply depends upon the sources of wear metals and how much ease or difficulty there is in finding the source, and then the resultant efforts if repairs are needed ...
An example would be high Al in Ford mod-motor engines. The timing chain tensioner rails are nylon backed by aluminum. Once the tensioner begins to fail, the chain slack causes slap that beats the nylon off the rails, and then you're left with steel on aluminum; hence a slight uptick in Fe and a big uptick in Al. There are many successful diagnostic stories of UOAs finding the significant uptick of the Al, and successful repairs before continued damage happens elsewhere in the engine. And because this is on the front of the engine, it's not absurdly difficult to repair.

As you mention, there are times when OCI frequency may be increased just as a stop-gap measure. Perhaps one sees a coolant leak develop. At least you can flush out the coolant along with the oil more often until you have time to tear heads off at a later date? Other times, you may decide to just ride the degradation to demise; perhaps you see Cu and Pb and Fe indicating journal bearing failure in an older, nearly worthless rusted out beater truck you inherited from an uncle, and you use it only to keep your own truck from beatings on the farm? Might as well drive that until it's death as there's no value in fixing it.

But, that ease of diagnosis isn't always the case. This EB engine in this thread exhibits issues that elude us. This may be because not enough 3.5EB engines have failed yet to discover the tell-tale traits of underlying root cause(s).

If you do UOAs infrequently, and don't understand both the macro and micro implications of the UOAs, then it's really hard to tell what's going on until a major issue simply reveals the degradation in an undesirable manner.
 
Just to reiterate,

I did this UOA to establish a baseline, from what I considered to be a healthy engine. After taking the sample (but before I received results), I began investigating others' results. This disappointed me; what I saw in others' UOA's was Cu, Fe (and even Silicon) higher (3x +) than what I was typically seeing in my other vehicle. Then my results came in. Fuel was high, but not unheard of (Blackstone under-reporting noted), Pb was high, higher than I was seeing almost anywhere. I began further investigation and am currently thinking there is no Pb in the bearings' metallurgy, as Whimsey noted, and some other sources indicated.

So, the Pb is a mystery.
The fuel will have to be dealt with.
THE ENGINE RUNS GREAT!!!!! There are no driveability symptoms that I am aware of.
Fe and Cu might just be the nature of the beast, or they might be indicative of something.

The van goes into the dealer for some unrelated recall stuff, but maybe I will discuss this with the Service Mgr. My expectations are low, but maybe this needs to be in my records since van is still under warranty. Or maybe I should just zip it. Since it runs great, I'm sure Ford will yawn, not freak out (like I have).

Originally Posted by Whimsey
I thought Ford engines don't have lead components that show up in wear, like from crank shaft bearings or journals, as many older or non Ford engines have. That seems odd for a Ford engine to to have such a high level of lead as a wear metal in the UOA. Did you use some oil or fuel additive for this OCI period that may have lead in it? None of my Modular engines or the 2.3 EB engines show anything but VERY small amounts of lead in their UOA's.

Whimsey
 
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New UOA, this time running Ultra Platinum. Fuel very high (again), lead down considerably, copper, iron, silicon not as good as I had hoped. Oxidation high???

Previous fill saw lots of highway miles, and was on (mostly) new formula Platinum (SN+?); it was 5 qt SN+, 1 qt SN (older formula). This fill is actually 5 qts Ultra Plat (2017 vintage), and 1 qt SN normal Plat (early 2018 vintage, same as the 1 qt above). This fill has seen more sitting, parked conditions than driving: 5 mo, 900 mi. I am about to leave on an extended, 8-9000 mile summer trip, and thought I would check oil (thru dipstick, without draining) before the trip. Based on what I see, I intend to drain and replace with something different, very different.

I hate to take this to a dealer, despite warranty, though I might take it to a well-regarded independent (though I have only used them for state inspections. I "fired" my previous independent). I don't know source of fuel, but I hate to keep running this van with fuel-compromised oil. No matter what oil I put in, it will get subjected to fuel issue. Maybe something more stout will hold up better, but seems better oil is only a bandaid.

Your thoughts?

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New UOA. This is NOT Pennzoil, it is Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Restore...not the "normal" retail version, but the HDEO (plus SN) version available only thru Cummins or Ryder (as far as I know). Very expensive; very! It wasn't just the price of the oil itself, there was also the cost of the Terry Dyson advice leading up to its use. That price grumble aside, you would have to admit, the results are unbelievably better. In fact, I don't believe the fuel dilution figure. I've already had a retest, and fuel on the 1st test was 3.1. So maybe fuel "evaporates" once the sample bottle is open??? Also, please note how long oil was left in service (Terry led me to believe I could do this, although he now says change it NOW)

I'm sure Terry would be the first to tell you, you should not apply my results to your situation, but I'm pretty relieved by the new results...even if fuel result is questionable.

P.S. virgin VPBR has much more Boron, a starting visc of ~11.3, a very high Oxidation reading, and a reasonably high TBN.

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P.S. the edit window expired on above, so new post:

I've been pretty critical of Pennzoil since this experience. The VPBR lost a lot less viscosity, even after a much longer drain interval. And, yeah, now I see how low the Ph and Zn were with the PP (1st UOA, 5qt the SN+ version, 1qt "regular" SN). The PUP (2nd UOA, "regular" SN; note short drain interval) fared no better against fuel, in fact worse. By the way, there were no repairs or maintenance performed during any of this, other than air filter (when the PUP went in), and the oil filter was swapped out midway through the VPBR fill (in addition to new oil filter at initial VPBR fill).

I don't plan on constant use of VPBR, it wasn't intended for that, and my pockets aren't that deep. But my conclusion is Pennzoil Platinum (or PUP) aren't up to the task of an EcoBoost with a fuel dilution problem (which is apparently more common than you think, or than Blackstone indicates). Maybe if you use a thicker Pennzoil than a 5w30...

And hats off to Terry for directing all this.
 
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Obviously, the title change was not completely accurate until now:

45.8k miles on engine, 9.6k on the VPBR oil

And yes, the oil was just changed. I intend for this to be a short interval, followed by a long interval next summer during my travels (fingers crossed).
 
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Thanks PAOester, but I would prefer to use something with PAO and Ester.

OK, I said that for effect
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, but I kinda feel that way. Other than a higher starting KV100, what does that oil have to offer? Are such oils less likely to form carbon deposits? Or more likely to clean them out? I do get the notion of using a thicker oil to offset the thinning (shearing/dilution).

OK, OK, I'll look for some UOA's on lowSAPS oil's in EcoBoosts, but I'm not holding my breath...especially not for Pennzoil's version.
 
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