2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30

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Run D1G2 low SASP CAFE oil at your own peril...I'd sample a run of Ultra 10W30 full SN assuming no starts below 0F.
 
Originally Posted by claluja
Any chance you (OP) used any farm fuel or off road fuel? Think lead may still be allowed in certain fuels like that, but not sure.


No. Only possibility is the quickie lube place(s) slipped some additive in while I wasn't looking, but I consider that very unlikely. Very straightforward usage and maintenance. My oil changes were 5000-7100 mi intervals, this last one was 6150 mi. 1st 3 were Motorcraft blend, then Pennzoil Ultra Plat (5qt of 2017 pureplus version, 6th qt regular Platinum), then all Pennzoil Plat this last time (possibly 5 qt of D1G2, and 6th qt 2017 version). All these were 5w30. NEVER any additives.

Gas? Well, mostly 87 regular, but in mountains, I tried to alternate 86 octane-88 octane, in other words, used mid-grade every other time, not draining tank completely before refill, to keep the average closer to 87. Admittedly, this was imprecise. No extra-sketchy gas stations that I recall. I will say that going from Texas regular (currently under $2) to mountain-state pricing, and then bumping to mid-grade grizzled me, especially since I used a lot of gas this year (14k miles since June). There were several days in there with 700+ "non-stop" miles, and lots of elevation change. No towing. No noticeable misbehavior by the motor. I used the manual shifting buttons and tow-haul (to keep from lugging the motor as much as possible) when doing steep roads...some forest service roads. Generally, not heavy-footed driving.
 
Originally Posted by Artem
Originally Posted by advocate
The ecoboost gets away with running 87 octane by injecting extra fuel to cool the combustion process. Otherwise it would not like it and would die an early death. Take a look at the black soot on your tailpipes. These run really rich. The stock tune will adjust for the fuel that's in the tank. Run premium 91+ octane fuels and you will likely see less fuel dilution.


This guy here speaks the truth. I run premium in my Mazda 3, which comes rated for 87 regular. I have zero fuel dilution. Others post some fuel in their sample who run regular, so it seems to agree with real world experiment, at least in my case.

It does make sense from a mechanical stand point as well.

Mid grade doesn't do much. It's not even mid grade in most of the country. On the east coast it's: 87, 89, 93. Seems they are ripping us off with the "mid octane" LOL.

Go full blast premium for one OCI. It's the cheapest diagnostic / experiment you can do, since pulling the injectors and sending them off or replacing perfectly good fuel pumps is a pain and expensive and won't change jack.

Premium fuel for 6,000 miles is cheap in comparison and you'll benefit from extra engine performance at the same time. It's a win win.

There's a reason why many manufacturers recently pushed for higher quality gas in the US. They can't improve upon 87 octane. We have reached the limit. Dosing the engine with extra fuel to cool the combustion in an effort to allow the consumer to run regular gas is RIDICULOUS. The consumer ends up dealing with fuel in the oil as the result.



What is the evidence to back this theory of using higher octane will offset the need for fuel dilution. There are plenty of examples of were consumers will buy an engine were higher octane is recommended. Chrysler HEMI is a example.
 
Originally Posted by dblshock
Run D1G2 low SASP CAFE oil at your own peril...I'd sample a run of Ultra 10W30 full SN assuming no starts below 0F.


I didn't even know there was such a thing as D1G2 until this fall. But, From my readings, I thought D1G2 would be a good thing, given the Ecoboost is a GTDI engine. The current fill is Ultra again from my "stash", and I've been fretting it will not be a good fit, because it is NOT D1G2 (it's the "older" lotso Ca, minimal Mg concept). This UOA results imply to me the oil I just changed out and UOA'd was 5qt jug of the latest Platinum (D1G2), and pretty sure the 6th quart was older D1 not G2.

I run the slightly thick Castrol 0w30 Euro in my out-of-warranty Turbo Subaru, and it retains good (11ish) visc on its slightly-longer-than-recommended 4500-5000 mi OCI's, but I wasn't going to stray too far off Ford's specs until warranty expires.

After seeing the UOA, I've thought of sucking out 2-3 qts of the current fill and replacing with Platinum Euro, again, to bump up the visc by a point or so. But not sure how smart it is to mix A3B4 oil with A1A5-type.
 
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Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by Artem
Originally Posted by advocate
The ecoboost gets away with running 87 octane by injecting extra fuel to cool the combustion process. Otherwise it would not like it and would die an early death. Take a look at the black soot on your tailpipes. These run really rich. The stock tune will adjust for the fuel that's in the tank. Run premium 91+ octane fuels and you will likely see less fuel dilution.


This guy here speaks the truth. I run premium in my Mazda 3, which comes rated for 87 regular. I have zero fuel dilution. Others post some fuel in their sample who run regular, so it seems to agree with real world experiment, at least in my case.

It does make sense from a mechanical stand point as well.

Mid grade doesn't do much. It's not even mid grade in most of the country. On the east coast it's: 87, 89, 93. Seems they are ripping us off with the "mid octane" LOL.

Go full blast premium for one OCI. It's the cheapest diagnostic / experiment you can do, since pulling the injectors and sending them off or replacing perfectly good fuel pumps is a pain and expensive and won't change jack.

Premium fuel for 6,000 miles is cheap in comparison and you'll benefit from extra engine performance at the same time. It's a win win.

There's a reason why many manufacturers recently pushed for higher quality gas in the US. They can't improve upon 87 octane. We have reached the limit. Dosing the engine with extra fuel to cool the combustion in an effort to allow the consumer to run regular gas is RIDICULOUS. The consumer ends up dealing with fuel in the oil as the result.



What is the evidence to back this theory of using higher octane will offset the need for fuel dilution. There are plenty of examples of were consumers will buy an engine were higher octane is recommended. Chrysler HEMI is a example.


Subaru requires (not just "recommends") premium in their 2.5 Turbo (of my 2007 vintage anyway). I have done only 2 UOA's on it, and all looks good...much better than anyone's Ecoboost UOA (that I've seen). Is it the design? The premium fuel? The Euro Castrol? The slightly shorter OCI? Is it using Blackstone instead of OA?

Of course, that isn't your "evidence."

Is there an Ecoboost3.5 UOA from someone who has consistently used premium fuel?
 
On another page that I'm on a group of people were showing how much they were collecting with their catch cans on a 2.7 Ecoboost. The guys running regular 87 octane we're having near full catch cans in 5-6k. The guys running 93 octane (stock or tuned) were only getting an ounce or two in their cans in the same timeframe. Not scientific. But something to consider.

With premium fuel I can see less fuel dilution as they don't have to inject extra fuel to keep from preigniting. I have a 2.7 and we only run 94 octane fuel in it. It just seems happier. On 87 it seems to hesitate and feel laggy. That is gone when it gets higher octane. Plus it gets better fuel economy. Not quite enough to outweigh the cost but it's worth it to me. Less fuel stops and a better running engine.
 
I know it's not common in US but the country i'm originally from it's not rare to fill up with gasoline full of lead that is used for knock reduction. Could be the case here as well. Just a guess
 
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If you upgrade the motor oil or not Ford will never ask, have they asked you yet?, me either....regardless, the lead issue might be addressed by a full add pkg. Upgrade from the weak D1G2 swill just keep the Ca lower with additional Mg, you get this. I'd be trying a 10/30 0/40 5/40 predicated on cold start temps then do your UOA.

That little motor pushing a big box through the wind and grades at I-system speeds is severe, your UOA just pointed it out, action required. G/L
 
Originally Posted by dblshock
...regardless, the lead issue might be addressed by a full add pkg. Upgrade from the weak D1G2 swill just keep the Ca lower with additional Mg, you get this.


Um, No, I don't fully understand. I know you went on to say try thicker oil, but I didn't understand how to get a "full add pkg," or how to keep the Ca lower with additional Mg. Are you suggesting an additive? Or a different brand?


I filled with Ultra this time, which might be a smidge thicker or more resistant to shear, maybe, but I believe it is high Ca, low Mg. Bottle dates back to Oct 2017, no mention of Dexos, unless GM 4718m or GM 6094m is Dexos.

I'm not opposed to mixing in something thicker, but I hate to throw the whole NEW batch of ultra out, or futzing with selling off the 2 remaining 5 qt jugs of Ultra I have. Actually, I'm [censored] at how much futzing has already occurred. After all, my usage and OCI's at effectively 60% (now with full synthetic no less) borders on "babying" vs "flogging" or "neglecting."
 
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Originally Posted by Impatient
[]... no mention of Dexos, unless GM 4718m or GM 6094m is Dexos.

No they are not, they are older I guess
 
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I like a hi Ca formula for the Toyota but not the Honda TGDI, there >1800ppm can help if LSPI presents itself we're told but in both these I want a max SAPS formula.
 
Originally Posted by Artem
Originally Posted by advocate
The ecoboost gets away with running 87 octane by injecting extra fuel to cool the combustion process. Otherwise it would not like it and would die an early death. Take a look at the black soot on your tailpipes. These run really rich. The stock tune will adjust for the fuel that's in the tank. Run premium 91+ octane fuels and you will likely see less fuel dilution.


This guy here speaks the truth. I run premium in my Mazda 3, which comes rated for 87 regular. I have zero fuel dilution. Others post some fuel in their sample who run regular, so it seems to agree with real world experiment, at least in my case.

It does make sense from a mechanical stand point as well.

Mid grade doesn't do much. It's not even mid grade in most of the country. On the east coast it's: 87, 89, 93. Seems they are ripping us off with the "mid octane" LOL.

Go full blast premium for one OCI. It's the cheapest diagnostic / experiment you can do, since pulling the injectors and sending them off or replacing perfectly good fuel pumps is a pain and expensive and won't change jack.

Premium fuel for 6,000 miles is cheap in comparison and you'll benefit from extra engine performance at the same time. It's a win win.

There's a reason why many manufacturers recently pushed for higher quality gas in the US. They can't improve upon 87 octane. We have reached the limit. Dosing the engine with extra fuel to cool the combustion in an effort to allow the consumer to run regular gas is RIDICULOUS. The consumer ends up dealing with fuel in the oil as the result.



^^^^

I believe you are right about this...
 
Originally Posted by Impatient


I'm not opposed to mixing in something thicker, but I hate to throw the whole NEW batch of ultra out, or futzing with selling off the 2 remaining 5 qt jugs of Ultra I have. Actually, I'm [censored] at how much futzing has already occurred. After all, my usage and OCI's at effectively 60% (now with full synthetic no less) borders on "babying" vs "flogging" or "neglecting."



You definitely are babying it with maintenance but you can't deny that it does get a good workout at the same time.

Don't make this harder then it needs to be. Try a 5w40 euro spec Lube that is designed to actually Protect a hard working engine and see how she does.

For all you know, it will lower your wear numbers and you can run extended OCIs and not stress about this again.
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted by Artem
Originally Posted by Impatient


I'm not opposed to mixing in something thicker, but I hate to throw the whole NEW batch of ultra out, or futzing with selling off the 2 remaining 5 qt jugs of Ultra I have. Actually, I'm [censored] at how much futzing has already occurred. After all, my usage and OCI's at effectively 60% (now with full synthetic no less) borders on "babying" vs "flogging" or "neglecting."



You definitely are babying it with maintenance but you can't deny that it does get a good workout at the same time.

Don't make this harder then it needs to be. Try a 5w40 euro spec Lube that is designed to actually Protect a hard working engine and see how she does.

For all you know, it will lower your wear numbers and you can run extended OCIs and not stress about this again.
thumbsup2.gif



I baby it while driving too. I drive like a little old lady.....who's late for church
smile.gif


Seriously, I drive mildly...relatively. I try not to lug it, and don't flog it either. More 65-70, less (way way way less) 75+. I sense cavitation, so keep the speed below body aerodynamic cavitation :)s . Likewise, I sense lugging, so downshift manually.

I'm researching thicker or more stout oils.
 
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Well, forgive me for being negative Nancy.... but: you're never going to uncover anything of real value swapping lubricants on every OCI. There are just too many variables in play; roughly 20% of the old lubricant stays in the galleys and pooled in the engine, and this is why you normally see the experienced folk recommend at least 2 OCI, maybe 3 on the same oil brand and weight before doing a UOA.

Second off, with all these specifications, PP isn't what's letting you down. It meets the required M2C946-A specification of Ford lubricants, and especially with all the hullabaloo over the PSD CK4 oils that Ford didn't like, that tells me this one having the certs means they are satisfied with it.

Now, here's where I have to use restraint, because I really like PUP... but, it "technically" is NOT certified to the M2C946-A spec, it meets requirements. The PP IS certified... and that is what matters. Don't get me wrong, as I too believe the PUP should be just fine, but as someone else stated, if you are going to possibly have a warranty claim for what is surely a $6-8000 engine rebuild, you should make sure you have your ducks in a row. If you're still under 1k miles, I'd drain the PUP and run it in OPE or another vehicle, and get PP or another 946-A certified oil in the sump. Then run it for at least 2 OCIs, and when draining the 3rd OCI of the same oil, send THAT sample in for a UOA to see where the numbers are, and build your trend from there. If you want to keep it a little cheaper, use the Motorcraft 5W30- it meets the warranty requirements and should be a little less expensive while you figure out what's going on. Good luck!

pp5w30.PNG
 
This whole experience has thrown me into a tizzy. But:

1) I am pursuing a retest
2) I will run premium for awhile
3) I'm investigating ways to reduce:
...A) fuel dilution (see #2 and possible catch can)
...B) viscosity reduction (see #3a plus use thicker oil). WHAT IS THE THICKEST ......5w30 SN COMPLIANT (somewhat ignoring Ford's m2c946a spec)???
...C) preserve warranty as much as possible (avoid oils definitively out of spec). ......PUP is not definitively out of spec, but is in a grey area.
...D) lead...I have no clue, except 3a, b, c, and maybe 4 below
4) I will probably flip to 0w40 once out of warranty, but that is 25,000 miles from now.

I am reading thru exhaustive thread about some guy who ran Redline in his Vette for quite some time, and had similar lead figures to mine, then switched to M1 0w40, and the lead dropped to single digits. So, if his motor was't "ruined," perhaps mine isn't either.

My next change will probably be on one of my campervan's road trips, so I will have to figure out how to get a reasonable UOA from a quickie lube or some other way. Of course, that limits remediation options for the refill.
 
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Retest confirmed results..Fe, Cu, Pb all dropped by 1 ppm, but of course, Pb still too high at 31. Fuel dilution reconfirmed. Low visc reconfirmed.
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted by Impatient
Retest confirmed results..Fe, Cu, Pb all dropped by 1 ppm, but of course, Pb still too high at 31. Fuel dilution reconfirmed. Low visc reconfirmed.
frown.gif



On the bright side, at least you know what you're dealing with. No speculating on the oil analysis. Hope you're glad you used Polaris.
 
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As discussed, time for controlled experiments ...

First try 91 fuel for at least one, if not two OCI/UOA cycle(s) and see what happens; it may help the fuel dilution.

as for the Pb, I would think that there is no magic bullet here; no lube is going to address this. Very likely you've got a bearing with high wear somewhere. Could be a journal bearing or might be some type of sliding friction surface? Honestly I'm not up on all the current design of the EB engines.

If it's not hard to pull the HP fuel pump (does not look hard by the YT vids), then pull it out and see if you can find any odd wear patterns on the plunger assembly, etc. Not addressing the fuel dilution here as much as looking for an easy indicator of wear somewhere perhaps in the HP pump.

Manufacturing defects, while much more scarce today than 3 or 4 decades ago, are not to be ruled out. Perhaps a rod or journal bearing has been bad from the get-go, and is now to a point of rearing it's ugly head, and the bearing is suffering. Alignment inconsistencies, mismatched parts, etc ...

The question becomes where do you draw a line? Do you continue to operate it and just hope it never gets so bad that it affects performance or longevity? Do you sell/trade it off prior to serious degradation? This is why we do UOAs; this is telling you something is wrong. But it's too hard to know where the source it without tearing into it, and that costs money and time that might be better spent elsewhere.
 
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
As discussed, time for controlled experiments ...

First try 91 fuel for at least one, if not two OCI/UOA cycle(s) and see what happens; it may help the fuel dilution.

as for the Pb, I would think that there is no magic bullet here; no lube is going to address this. Very likely you've got a bearing with high wear somewhere. Could be a journal bearing or might be some type of sliding friction surface? Honestly I'm not up on all the current design of the EB engines.

If it's not hard to pull the HP fuel pump (does not look hard by the YT vids), then pull it out and see if you can find any odd wear patterns on the plunger assembly, etc. Not addressing the fuel dilution here as much as looking for an easy indicator of wear somewhere perhaps in the HP pump.

Manufacturing defects, while much more scarce today than 3 or 4 decades ago, are not to be ruled out. Perhaps a rod or journal bearing has been bad from the get-go, and is now to a point of rearing it's ugly head, and the bearing is suffering. Alignment inconsistencies, mismatched parts, etc ...

The question becomes where do you draw a line? Do you continue to operate it and just hope it never gets so bad that it affects performance or longevity? Do you sell/trade it off prior to serious degradation? This is why we do UOAs; this is telling you something is wrong. But it's too hard to know where the source it without tearing into it, and that costs money and time that might be better spent elsewhere.



Somewhat agree. Will do the premium fuel.

BUT, Dirty Howie and his Vette had Pb in 20's and 30's for a number of Redline 5w30 OCI's; he switched to Mobil 1 0w40 and lead dropped to single digits. SO, the lube might matter. Now, I'm not convinced brand per se matters, but the individual oil composition might. So maybe in his case Redline had a different goal in mind than Mobil did with its 0w40. MAYBE in my case Pennzoil Plat is geared more toward CAFE requirements than protection (actually I hope this is not true). But PP and PUP do have lower VOA viscosities than some other brands. So add shear to a low starting viscosity, and maybe you have an issue...with PP in an EcoBoost with a fuel dilution problem. That's said, doesn't mean I shouldn't deal with the fuel dilution problem...if possible.

I hope I have another OCI or two to "rectify." It could be a one shot issue. Next UOA may not replicate the problem (maybe there is a Santa Claus). Or maybe there is some weird interaction between PP and Ecoboost, which scavenges Pb. Or maybe I have a real, persistent problem. It will take at least 1 more UOA to BEGIN to answer that question. Again, Dirty Howie had multiple bad Pb readings, and his motor seemed to recover, maybe.
 
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