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Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4959205
12/23/18 02:26 AM
12/23/18 02:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,246
WI.
dblshock Offline
dblshock  Offline

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,246
WI.
I like a hi Ca formula for the Toyota but not the Honda TGDI, there >1800ppm can help if LSPI presents itself we're told but in both these I want a max SAPS formula.


05 Lexus GX470 167k
640:1 TCW-3
5/30 10/30 5/40
Michelin Latitude

06 4Runner SR5 150k
640:1 TCW-3
Citgo 10/30 conv XG3614
Falken Wildpeak AT3W
Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Artem] #4960094
12/24/18 06:43 AM
12/24/18 06:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,282
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,282
Virginia
Originally Posted by Artem
Originally Posted by advocate
The ecoboost gets away with running 87 octane by injecting extra fuel to cool the combustion process. Otherwise it would not like it and would die an early death. Take a look at the black soot on your tailpipes. These run really rich. The stock tune will adjust for the fuel that’s in the tank. Run premium 91+ octane fuels and you will likely see less fuel dilution.


This guy here speaks the truth. I run premium in my Mazda 3, which comes rated for 87 regular. I have zero fuel dilution. Others post some fuel in their sample who run regular, so it seems to agree with real world experiment, at least in my case.

It does make sense from a mechanical stand point as well.

Mid grade doesn’t do much. It’s not even mid grade in most of the country. On the east coast it’s: 87, 89, 93. Seems they are ripping us off with the “mid octane” LOL.

Go full blast premium for one OCI. It’s the cheapest diagnostic / experiment you can do, since pulling the injectors and sending them off or replacing perfectly good fuel pumps is a pain and expensive and won’t change jack.

Premium fuel for 6,000 miles is cheap in comparison and you’ll benefit from extra engine performance at the same time. It’s a win win.

There’s a reason why many manufacturers recently pushed for higher quality gas in the US. They can’t improve upon 87 octane. We have reached the limit. Dosing the engine with extra fuel to cool the combustion in an effort to allow the consumer to run regular gas is RIDICULOUS. The consumer ends up dealing with fuel in the oil as the result.



^^^^

I believe you are right about this...


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Carquest High mileage full synthetic 5w30
CQ blue 84356 Oil filter
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4960603
12/24/18 06:57 PM
12/24/18 06:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,474
Florida
Artem Offline
Artem  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,474
Florida
Originally Posted by Impatient


I’m not opposed to mixing in something thicker, but I hate to throw the whole NEW batch of ultra out, or futzing with selling off the 2 remaining 5 qt jugs of Ultra I have. Actually, I’m [censored] at how much futzing has already occurred. After all, my usage and OCI’s at effectively 60% (now with full synthetic no less) borders on “babying” vs “flogging” or “neglecting.”



You definitely are babying it with maintenance but you can’t deny that it does get a good workout at the same time.

Don’t make this harder then it needs to be. Try a 5w40 euro spec Lube that is designed to actually Protect a hard working engine and see how she does.

For all you know, it will lower your wear numbers and you can run extended OCIs and not stress about this again. thumbsup


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Artem] #4962213
12/26/18 11:26 PM
12/26/18 11:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Impatient Offline OP
Impatient  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Originally Posted by Artem
Originally Posted by Impatient


I’m not opposed to mixing in something thicker, but I hate to throw the whole NEW batch of ultra out, or futzing with selling off the 2 remaining 5 qt jugs of Ultra I have. Actually, I’m [censored] at how much futzing has already occurred. After all, my usage and OCI’s at effectively 60% (now with full synthetic no less) borders on “babying” vs “flogging” or “neglecting.”



You definitely are babying it with maintenance but you can’t deny that it does get a good workout at the same time.

Don’t make this harder then it needs to be. Try a 5w40 euro spec Lube that is designed to actually Protect a hard working engine and see how she does.

For all you know, it will lower your wear numbers and you can run extended OCIs and not stress about this again. thumbsup


I baby it while driving too. I drive like a little old lady.....who's late for church smile

Seriously, I drive mildly...relatively. I try not to lug it, and don't flog it either. More 65-70, less (way way way less) 75+. I sense cavitation, so keep the speed below body aerodynamic cavitation :)s . Likewise, I sense lugging, so downshift manually.

I'm researching thicker or more stout oils.

Last edited by Impatient; 12/26/18 11:35 PM.

15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
07 Subaru OBXT 2.5 Turbo Castrol Euro 0w30
Re: 2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4962293
12/27/18 01:41 AM
12/27/18 01:41 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,883
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline
SubieRubyRoo  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,883
The land of USA-made Subies!
Well, forgive me for being negative Nancy.... but: you're never going to uncover anything of real value swapping lubricants on every OCI. There are just too many variables in play; roughly 20% of the old lubricant stays in the galleys and pooled in the engine, and this is why you normally see the experienced folk recommend at least 2 OCI, maybe 3 on the same oil brand and weight before doing a UOA.

Second off, with all these specifications, PP isn't what's letting you down. It meets the required M2C946-A specification of Ford lubricants, and especially with all the hullabaloo over the PSD CK4 oils that Ford didn't like, that tells me this one having the certs means they are satisfied with it.

Now, here's where I have to use restraint, because I really like PUP... but, it "technically" is NOT certified to the M2C946-A spec, it meets requirements. The PP IS certified... and that is what matters. Don't get me wrong, as I too believe the PUP should be just fine, but as someone else stated, if you are going to possibly have a warranty claim for what is surely a $6-8000 engine rebuild, you should make sure you have your ducks in a row. If you're still under 1k miles, I'd drain the PUP and run it in OPE or another vehicle, and get PP or another 946-A certified oil in the sump. Then run it for at least 2 OCIs, and when draining the 3rd OCI of the same oil, send THAT sample in for a UOA to see where the numbers are, and build your trend from there. If you want to keep it a little cheaper, use the Motorcraft 5W30- it meets the warranty requirements and should be a little less expensive while you figure out what's going on. Good luck!

pp5w30.PNG
Re: 2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4963071
12/28/18 12:46 AM
12/28/18 12:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Impatient Offline OP
Impatient  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
This whole experience has thrown me into a tizzy. But:

1) I am pursuing a retest
2) I will run premium for awhile
3) I’m investigating ways to reduce:
...A) fuel dilution (see #2 and possible catch can)
...B) viscosity reduction (see #3a plus use thicker oil). WHAT IS THE THICKEST ......5w30 SN COMPLIANT (somewhat ignoring Ford’s m2c946a spec)???
...C) preserve warranty as much as possible (avoid oils definitively out of spec). ......PUP is not definitively out of spec, but is in a grey area.
...D) lead...I have no clue, except 3a, b, c, and maybe 4 below
4) I will probably flip to 0w40 once out of warranty, but that is 25,000 miles from now.

I am reading thru exhaustive thread about some guy who ran Redline in his Vette for quite some time, and had similar lead figures to mine, then switched to M1 0w40, and the lead dropped to single digits. So, if his motor was’t “ruined,” perhaps mine isn’t either.

My next change will probably be on one of my campervan’s road trips, so I will have to figure out how to get a reasonable UOA from a quickie lube or some other way. Of course, that limits remediation options for the refill.

Last edited by Impatient; 12/28/18 01:00 AM.

15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
07 Subaru OBXT 2.5 Turbo Castrol Euro 0w30
Re: 2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4963334
12/28/18 11:59 AM
12/28/18 11:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Impatient Offline OP
Impatient  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Retest confirmed results..Fe, Cu, Pb all dropped by 1 ppm, but of course, Pb still too high at 31. Fuel dilution reconfirmed. Low visc reconfirmed. frown


15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
07 Subaru OBXT 2.5 Turbo Castrol Euro 0w30
Re: 2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4963669
12/28/18 05:57 PM
12/28/18 05:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 463
MD
claluja Online content
claluja  Online Content

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 463
MD
Originally Posted by Impatient
Retest confirmed results..Fe, Cu, Pb all dropped by 1 ppm, but of course, Pb still too high at 31. Fuel dilution reconfirmed. Low visc reconfirmed. frown


On the bright side, at least you know what you're dealing with. No speculating on the oil analysis. Hope you're glad you used Polaris.

Last edited by claluja; 12/28/18 05:58 PM.

2014 F250 6.7L PSD
2006 Sequoia 4.7L
2005 E500 5.0L
2018 Jeep Rubicon, Pentastar 3.6L
Re: 2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4963822
12/28/18 08:20 PM
12/28/18 08:20 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,957
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
Global Moderator
dnewton3  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,957
Indianapolis, IN
As discussed, time for controlled experiments ...

First try 91 fuel for at least one, if not two OCI/UOA cycle(s) and see what happens; it may help the fuel dilution.

as for the Pb, I would think that there is no magic bullet here; no lube is going to address this. Very likely you've got a bearing with high wear somewhere. Could be a journal bearing or might be some type of sliding friction surface? Honestly I'm not up on all the current design of the EB engines.

If it's not hard to pull the HP fuel pump (does not look hard by the YT vids), then pull it out and see if you can find any odd wear patterns on the plunger assembly, etc. Not addressing the fuel dilution here as much as looking for an easy indicator of wear somewhere perhaps in the HP pump.

Manufacturing defects, while much more scarce today than 3 or 4 decades ago, are not to be ruled out. Perhaps a rod or journal bearing has been bad from the get-go, and is now to a point of rearing it's ugly head, and the bearing is suffering. Alignment inconsistencies, mismatched parts, etc ...

The question becomes where do you draw a line? Do you continue to operate it and just hope it never gets so bad that it affects performance or longevity? Do you sell/trade it off prior to serious degradation? This is why we do UOAs; this is telling you something is wrong. But it's too hard to know where the source it without tearing into it, and that costs money and time that might be better spent elsewhere.


Last edited by dnewton3; 12/28/18 08:21 PM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 2015 3.5EB 35k mi; 6.1k on PP 5w30 [Re: dnewton3] #4963964
12/29/18 12:11 AM
12/29/18 12:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Impatient Offline OP
Impatient  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Originally Posted by dnewton3
As discussed, time for controlled experiments ...

First try 91 fuel for at least one, if not two OCI/UOA cycle(s) and see what happens; it may help the fuel dilution.

as for the Pb, I would think that there is no magic bullet here; no lube is going to address this. Very likely you've got a bearing with high wear somewhere. Could be a journal bearing or might be some type of sliding friction surface? Honestly I'm not up on all the current design of the EB engines.

If it's not hard to pull the HP fuel pump (does not look hard by the YT vids), then pull it out and see if you can find any odd wear patterns on the plunger assembly, etc. Not addressing the fuel dilution here as much as looking for an easy indicator of wear somewhere perhaps in the HP pump.

Manufacturing defects, while much more scarce today than 3 or 4 decades ago, are not to be ruled out. Perhaps a rod or journal bearing has been bad from the get-go, and is now to a point of rearing it's ugly head, and the bearing is suffering. Alignment inconsistencies, mismatched parts, etc ...

The question becomes where do you draw a line? Do you continue to operate it and just hope it never gets so bad that it affects performance or longevity? Do you sell/trade it off prior to serious degradation? This is why we do UOAs; this is telling you something is wrong. But it's too hard to know where the source it without tearing into it, and that costs money and time that might be better spent elsewhere.



Somewhat agree. Will do the premium fuel.

BUT, Dirty Howie and his Vette had Pb in 20's and 30's for a number of Redline 5w30 OCI's; he switched to Mobil 1 0w40 and lead dropped to single digits. SO, the lube might matter. Now, I'm not convinced brand per se matters, but the individual oil composition might. So maybe in his case Redline had a different goal in mind than Mobil did with its 0w40. MAYBE in my case Pennzoil Plat is geared more toward CAFE requirements than protection (actually I hope this is not true). But PP and PUP do have lower VOA viscosities than some other brands. So add shear to a low starting viscosity, and maybe you have an issue...with PP in an EcoBoost with a fuel dilution problem. That's said, doesn't mean I shouldn't deal with the fuel dilution problem...if possible.

I hope I have another OCI or two to "rectify." It could be a one shot issue. Next UOA may not replicate the problem (maybe there is a Santa Claus). Or maybe there is some weird interaction between PP and Ecoboost, which scavenges Pb. Or maybe I have a real, persistent problem. It will take at least 1 more UOA to BEGIN to answer that question. Again, Dirty Howie had multiple bad Pb readings, and his motor seemed to recover, maybe.

Last edited by Impatient; 12/29/18 12:19 AM.

15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
07 Subaru OBXT 2.5 Turbo Castrol Euro 0w30
Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4963968
12/29/18 12:15 AM
12/29/18 12:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 418
montreal ,canada
madeej11 Offline
madeej11  Offline

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 418
montreal ,canada
Originally Posted by Impatient
Bumping the thread to acknowledge some interesting twists this has taken with the premium fuel recommendation. OA has agreed to retest the sample, though I doubt this will “fix” the problem. I will look into the premium fuel aspect; after all, I’ve been running premium in the Subaru, at mfgr’s recommendation. So what if this costs an extra $400/yr.🤬. I am hoping the lead is an anomaly. There are several ways to keep the oil more robust. Castrol-, Mobil-, or Pennzoil-Euro might also help a tad with starting viscosity, although it is debatable if I should deviate from Ford recommended spec. They don’t allow for anything thicker than 5w30 in the manual (for the EB). I suppose I could argue that the Pennzoil 5w30 is just as good/better, but I had hoped to keep this rig for 120k+ miles, ie my goal is far beyond getting to the 60k warranty expiration. Maybe 5w30 is just not good enough.

Impatient, maybe try QSUD 5w30 I believe it conforms to the Ford spec, it is also Dexos1 gen2 sn plus. Viscosity @100c is 11.64, VI 170, with higher than normal Moly. This paired with a premium grade gas may help with the fuel dilution and hopefully bring down the lead level somewhat also. Try a 5k run with this combo and another UOA. You seem intent on using a 5w30, so this is why I didn't recommend a 40 weight. Stay the course a little longer and just maybe things will look up.. Fingers are crossed, good luck.

Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4963972
12/29/18 12:24 AM
12/29/18 12:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,474
Florida
Artem Offline
Artem  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,474
Florida
Definitely replicate the current UOA to confirm results. THEN step up to premium and see how she does. I’m really hoping this advice will stand the test and show positive results. Your vehicle is a good candidate.


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Artem] #4964572
12/29/18 05:59 PM
12/29/18 05:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Impatient Offline OP
Impatient  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Controlled Experimentation is one thing. Preserving my motor is another ( with all due respect, Artem...I see your point, but am nervous about being the guinea pig). This current fill will probably endure 3 consecutive days of 700 mile runs, and then short trip usage with altitude changes and dirt roads...Not sure how short an OCI I will do.

In retrospect, it think the PP is just too thin in a known diluter engine (see below). I already deviated from a perfect controlled experiment because I filled with PUP instead of PP.

I’m probably flailing but I am entertaining a few oil options:

1) drain and toss. (I don’t really like these options)
a) Refill with Motorcraft, and try to make it Ford’s problem as much as possible. Besides, MC does have a higher Kv100 spec at 10.8(?)
b) Refill with Castro Euro, preferably 0w30, but possibly 0w40. Out of Ford spec, but well thought of, and thicker, with better HTHS
c) refill with PP, which I see no advantage to, except for the scientific rigor.

2) partially drain 1/2 and keep the drained oil for next time. Refill 1/2 with one of these:
a) Pennzoil Euro 0w40 or
b) Pennzoil Euro L 5w30, which local Walmart has. Both of these have considerably higher starting kv100 specs than either PP or PUP.
c) QSUD 5w30 with its considerably higher Kv100.

I didn’t realize how low the starting kv100 readings were from VOA’s. PP is only like 9.6...so yes it sheared, or diluted, down to 8.2, but mathematically, that is not as dramatic as dropping from their stated spec (10.2?). Likewise a VOA of PUP (maybe pre-Pureplus) showed a 9.8 kv100, not all that close to its advertised 10.3 kv100 either. The Euro L had a kv100 of 12.4, the QSUD 11.3, and the Euro 0w40 probably over 13. All these are from memory, but I’m close. My point is, ASSUMING mixing different oil might have ROUGHLY an average of the 2 oils mixed kv100 (and kv40), and because they are all SOPUS ( except the Motorcraft & Castrol from options 1a & 1b above), they might play nice together. QSUD is another ILSAC oil, whereas the Euro oils are not. I can’t find squat in BITOG about specifically mixing ILSAC with A3/B4 (or C3) oils. Mixing Plat Euro oils with the PUP theoretically might be preferable since they are all GTL (not sure if they are from the same GTL base).


15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
07 Subaru OBXT 2.5 Turbo Castrol Euro 0w30
Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4964698
12/29/18 09:09 PM
12/29/18 09:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,474
Florida
Artem Offline
Artem  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,474
Florida
Oh come on, messing around with draining half, then storing it and reusing it many months later in order to save that, $10 worth of used oil seems silly to me.

Dump it and consider it a mini flush. The engine will like it.

Pour in stronger oil and enjoy the ride. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Forget the OEM spec. It’s obviously designed to give you 0.1mpg increase over engine protection and nobody at the dealership will care about your engine after the warranty exprires, so you’re on your own regardless.


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: 2015 3.5EB Ecoboost Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 [Re: Impatient] #4964889
12/30/18 12:30 AM
12/30/18 12:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
Impatient Offline OP
Impatient  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 78
DFW, TX
You’re right, You’re right. I’ve become deranged by this. I wish I could delete my last post; maybe the whole friggin thread. But, NO oil mixing. You’re right. So, the current fill stays in, at least for the winter. It’s Pennzoil’s highest recommendation for this vehicle. It’s not like I was putting conventional SuperTech in it at 15k intervals. I was just trying to put the very best non-foo-foo oil in it that I could, without going out of spec, at a very conservative 6k interval. I hope for Ford’s sake, and mine (and Pennzoil’s), this motor lasts for 150k miles. Given how I dote over my vehicles, if it doesnt, it’s a true P.O.S.


15 Ford Transit 250 3.5EB Turbo PPPUP 5w30
07 Subaru OBXT 2.5 Turbo Castrol Euro 0w30
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