Modern Engine's Grenading?

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Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by Skippy722
No they're not. Metal durability > rubber/nitrile/whatever mix durability

Ok, Skippy.

If a belt fails, it's typically YOUR fault because YOU neglected maintenance. If a chain fails, it's more or less random, and a design failure.

Less lubricated and moving parts with a belt. They run quieter and don't contribute to oil shearing.

I'd rather have a reliable part with a known life than a "lifetime" part that could fail whenever because it was poorly designed. I'd rather my 911 have a timing belt or two and have to drop the engine every 80k than the multi-chain, multi-tensioner, multi-failure point system it has now. Same with my Audi. Timing chains on the rear - awesome design! What was wrong with the belt on the front?


I personally trust a chain more. Both have their pros and cons. I just think a belt has more cons than good.
 
Timing belts transfer less valvetrain harmonics to the crankshaft, but chains are more durable. Chains do however "stretch" (lengthen as the links wear). I prefer chains. But I more prefer the short chain on my Ford 390 to the mile long chains on my 4.6 DOHC and 3.0 Duratec, not to mention the 3.3 Hyundai.

Side note... the Duratec has 292,XXX miles and the Hyundai has 206,XXX. On original chains. My last high mileage car, a 2000 Dodge Stratus with a 2.4, had 297,XXX and had 3 timing belts. And they're not terribly easy to do on that car.

There are pros and cons, but I am a staunch timing chain supporter.


Unless it's a stupid design. (Ford 4.0... Audi...Suzuki 2.7...)
 
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?



Ever hear of timing belts snapping and bang goes the engine?


Never had it happen,but on all my belted engines,I always replaced them at oem intervals like clockwork,and the belts always looked factory fresh.
 
Originally Posted by willbur
Porsches 986 and 911 from say 1997 to 2008. Up to 8-10% failure rate for 2001-2005 models, 1-2 % for the other years. The IMS bearing would grenade and take the whole $20-30k engine with it in as early as 10-20 k miles. A lucrative upgrade/ replacement industry kept many bearing purveyors and mechanics eating well. A lot of internet hysteria, in my opinion.

I read BMW warranty costs for the 700 series were $100-200K a car.


Could you provide more info in the 700 series and warranty costs ? Just curious - I had a buddy with a BMW 750, which I think had the V12, and he drove it about 200k miles. I recall he had 2 major problems: the alternator failed, and he said it had a "water cooled" alternator, which I had never heard of before. The dealer charged him almost $3000 for the alternator repair. The 2nd problem was a leaking rear main seal. He sold the car to somebody that was familiar with rebuilding the engine and was willing to deal with the rear main seal. I only looked under the hood once, and it was only for about 30 seconds. I considered buying the car from him but not anywhere near his asking price, and he said he would rather sell it to a stranger that was willing to deal with the leak- more money from him, and less chance we would have a falling out
smile.gif


Regarding the Mini N14 and timing chain issues: been there !!
 
I would rather have a chain. They tend to give you some warning before they grenade. My brother has a close friend that works for BMW: his take on belts vs. chains is: belts are quieter and cheaper to manufacture. Belts give the dealer another opportunity to get a major $$ item from the customer when its time for maintenance.
 
The Kia/Hyundai Theta2 2.0 and 2.4 are known to have unexpected failures for largely unknown reasons. Could happen at any mileage. Could be manufacturing debris, improperly installed connecting rod caps, poor quality bearings, who knows.
 
After reading all the posts it appears there are not too many engines that just blew up. It appears the ones that did blow were timing chain or timing belt problems or extremely high mileage. It appears to me for the most part these mass produced engines last a long long time without blowing up no matter which auto maker manufactured the vehicle. I have never had an engine blow.
 
Originally Posted by 69Torino
Timing belts transfer less valvetrain harmonics to the crankshaft, but chains are more durable. Chains do however "stretch" (lengthen as the links wear). I prefer chains. But I more prefer the short chain on my Ford 390 to the mile long chains on my 4.6 DOHC and 3.0 Duratec, not to mention the 3.3 Hyundai.

Side note... the Duratec has 292,XXX miles and the Hyundai has 206,XXX. On original chains. My last high mileage car, a 2000 Dodge Stratus with a 2.4, had 297,XXX and had 3 timing belts. And they're not terribly easy to do on that car.

There are pros and cons, but I am a staunch timing chain supporter.


Unless it's a stupid design. (Ford 4.0... Audi...Suzuki 2.7...)


Original chain in my 230k mile 305 Chevy and that's with the stupid nylon coated gears. We checked for slop a number of years ago but I need to check it again. My plan was to replace when the water pump fails but that never happened so far.
 
Originally Posted by joekingcorvette
After reading all the posts it appears there are not too many engines that just blew up. It appears the ones that did blow were timing chain or timing belt problems or extremely high mileage. It appears to me for the most part these mass produced engines last a long long time without blowing up no matter which auto maker manufactured the vehicle. I have never had an engine blow.

There are a lot of Hundai and Kia owners who would disagree...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...ll-1-2-million-cars-for-engine-failures/
 
rubberchicken-
Sorry, I can't recall the article that mentioned the early 700 series BMW warranty costs. I only recall that $100-200k figure because of how outrageous it was. German manufacturers will over design/over complicate anything. I think the top $$$-Benz has an automatic dimming trunk light. They charge an extra $800 for a lit hood star emblem. Germans are amazed by what Americans will pay for a car.
 
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Originally Posted by joekingcorvette
After reading all the posts it appears there are not too many engines that just blew up. It appears the ones that did blow were timing chain or timing belt problems or extremely high mileage. It appears to me for the most part these mass produced engines last a long long time without blowing up no matter which auto maker manufactured the vehicle. I have never had an engine blow.

There are a lot of Hundai and Kia owners who would disagree...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...ll-1-2-million-cars-for-engine-failures/


Quote
During machining of the engine crankshaft and crankpins, metal shavings may have been left within the crankshaft oil passages, and the crankpins themselves may be too rough on the edges. As a result, oil may be blocked and cause the connecting rod bearings to wear, which would then cause them to fail and seize the whole engine. That, of course, would cause the car to stall during driving.
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Originally Posted by joekingcorvette
After reading all the posts it appears there are not too many engines that just blew up. It appears the ones that did blow were timing chain or timing belt problems or extremely high mileage. It appears to me for the most part these mass produced engines last a long long time without blowing up no matter which auto maker manufactured the vehicle. I have never had an engine blow.

There are a lot of Hundai and Kia owners who would disagree...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...ll-1-2-million-cars-for-engine-failures/


Quote
During machining of the engine crankshaft and crankpins, metal shavings may have been left within the crankshaft oil passages, and the crankpins themselves may be too rough on the edges. As a result, oil may be blocked and cause the connecting rod bearings to wear, which would then cause them to fail and seize the whole engine. That, of course, would cause the car to stall during driving.



That is the story that Hyundai is sticking to but it definitely is not the actual cause of the continued failures. The problem exists from 2011 through at least 2015 now.
 
Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
Originally Posted by Brigadier

Quote
During machining of the engine crankshaft and crankpins, metal shavings may have been left within the crankshaft oil passages, and the crankpins themselves may be too rough on the edges. As a result, oil may be blocked and cause the connecting rod bearings to wear, which would then cause them to fail and seize the whole engine. That, of course, would cause the car to stall during driving.



That is the story that Hyundai is sticking to but it definitely is not the actual cause of the continued failures. The problem exists from 2011 through at least 2015 now.

If that is the cause, then so much for the improved and clean, near sterile machining process as some allude to used to produce modern engines.
 
Originally Posted by MrMoody
Wife's 05 Matrix broke a ring/piston on the interstate at 102K.


Interesting as we have the same engine in our 2005 Pontiac Vibe which we bough new. (It currently has 117k).
 
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
I would rather have a chain. They tend to give you some warning before they grenade. My brother has a close friend that works for BMW: his take on belts vs. chains is: belts are quieter and cheaper to manufacture. Belts give the dealer another opportunity to get a major $$ item from the customer when its time for maintenance.


My Ford with the 3.5 has miles of chains (1 long non-roller main chain, and 2 shorter roller chains), and it's completely quiet. Using belts instead in this engine would add a major maintenance requirement to replace them.
 
A lot of vehicles with belts were not easy changers. My Mitsubishi's engine had to be pulled to change the belt. That jacks up the labor costs and at every 60k as well.

Chains will last much longer.
 
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I never realized chains were this problematic. Maybe timing belt system is better?

Ever hear of timing belts snapping and bang goes the engine?

Sure, with deferred maintenance.

Belts are better.

Yep, and interference engines. I love belt tbh... more durable than modern chains, easily djustable cam gears and doesn't shear out the oil or put particles into it etc

Belt or chain though, carppy engine designs are carppy. For instance it's not spark plugs' fault I have to remove the whole intake manifold off a Toyota V6 to change the back three....
 
Originally Posted by caprice_2nv

That is the story that Hyundai is sticking to but it definitely is not the actual cause of the continued failures. The problem exists from 2011 through at least 2015 now.

Yep. I suspect it's more a matter of defective design/materials than workmanship. Nice they could throw the Alabamans under the bus to save the corporate face...
 
Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
Originally Posted by caprice_2nv

That is the story that Hyundai is sticking to but it definitely is not the actual cause of the continued failures. The problem exists from 2011 through at least 2015 now.

Yep. I suspect it's more a matter of defective design/materials than workmanship. Nice they could throw the Alabamans under the bus to save the corporate face...


And yet, from what I understand, the Korean made engines are not having these problems.
 
That would be the million dollar question if both factories have the same raw material supplier and foundry. Fact that they indicate significant engine machining operations in Alabama might suggest otherwise. What if they decided to delete a process eg. hardening/polishing for the NA-made/bound cars, perhaps because "american driving cycle". That's a defect that fits the vague bill and could have been directly associated to an executive decision, rather than a drunk machinist that managed to make quite a large batch of bad ones before anyone noticed,,,
 
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