I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
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GM killing Chevy Volt
- Thread starter OVERKILL
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You can get a Chevy Cruise, the car the Volt is based on, for $18,000. $38,000 - $18,000 = $20,000. $20,000/$3.00 = 6,700 gallons. At 30 mpg, that would pay for 200,000 miles of driving. Once all the techies and bored rich guys get their cars, sales will collapse. Gotta get the price down.
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Originally Posted by madRiver
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
My Volt brand new was $17,500 tax title and license out the door.
I get free charging and a trouble free ride
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
My Volt brand new was $17,500 tax title and license out the door.
I get free charging and a trouble free ride
American auto industry is going through a complete overhaul and even bankruptcy couldn't reset their heartburn.
Disengaging from electric will be very prohibitive on the long run for GM, hopefully they take all that electric technology into the SUV space.
This segment is going to go through a major shake and if GM doesn't change its in deep trouble.
Ford did excellently by killing all their V8 lines for their F150 trucks and moving many truck based SUVs to their V6/ Ecoboost V6 and making them less susceptible to gas prices.
GM demise will be right after Chrysler, its future looks very bleak trying to compete with Ford on their trucks and truck based SUVs. Does GM even have a equivalent to the Ecoboost engines.
Disengaging from electric will be very prohibitive on the long run for GM, hopefully they take all that electric technology into the SUV space.
This segment is going to go through a major shake and if GM doesn't change its in deep trouble.
Ford did excellently by killing all their V8 lines for their F150 trucks and moving many truck based SUVs to their V6/ Ecoboost V6 and making them less susceptible to gas prices.
GM demise will be right after Chrysler, its future looks very bleak trying to compete with Ford on their trucks and truck based SUVs. Does GM even have a equivalent to the Ecoboost engines.
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
American auto industry is going through a complete overhaul
Ford did excellently by killing all their V8 lines for their F150 trucks and moving many truck based SUVs to their V6/ Ecoboost V6 and making them less susceptible to gas prices.
GM demise will be right after Chrysler, its future looks very bleak trying to compete with Ford on their trucks and truck based SUVs. Does GM even have a equivalent to the Ecoboost engines.
GM has better turbo and diesel options in smaller rigs than Ford, their 4 banger half ton gets worse highway economy but in the real world better city than Ford.
Many GM V8's aren't far MPG wise than Turbo offerings from Ford, put your foot into an eco boost and you are better off with a v8 as it drinks fuel at all but gradual acceleration.
Never could understand why Ford has a wonderful reputation compared to GM
My experience with Ford wasn't far from my experience with Dodge or VW for that matter.
My experience with GM was much better with few repairs and less rust issues.
The only thing I can figure that separates Ford from GM is that Ford borrowed a huge amount of money from private banks before lines of credit dried up and GM didn't.
GM also makes much more competent hybrids and plug ins than Ford. They have more battery technology than even Toyota.
Now whether GM can competently market and sell is a whole other question
American auto industry is going through a complete overhaul
Ford did excellently by killing all their V8 lines for their F150 trucks and moving many truck based SUVs to their V6/ Ecoboost V6 and making them less susceptible to gas prices.
GM demise will be right after Chrysler, its future looks very bleak trying to compete with Ford on their trucks and truck based SUVs. Does GM even have a equivalent to the Ecoboost engines.
GM has better turbo and diesel options in smaller rigs than Ford, their 4 banger half ton gets worse highway economy but in the real world better city than Ford.
Many GM V8's aren't far MPG wise than Turbo offerings from Ford, put your foot into an eco boost and you are better off with a v8 as it drinks fuel at all but gradual acceleration.
Never could understand why Ford has a wonderful reputation compared to GM
My experience with Ford wasn't far from my experience with Dodge or VW for that matter.
My experience with GM was much better with few repairs and less rust issues.
The only thing I can figure that separates Ford from GM is that Ford borrowed a huge amount of money from private banks before lines of credit dried up and GM didn't.
GM also makes much more competent hybrids and plug ins than Ford. They have more battery technology than even Toyota.
Now whether GM can competently market and sell is a whole other question
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by madRiver
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
My Volt brand new was $17,500 tax title and license out the door.
I get free charging and a trouble free ride
MSRP is $35,598. They must have liked you.
Originally Posted by madRiver
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
My Volt brand new was $17,500 tax title and license out the door.
I get free charging and a trouble free ride
MSRP is $35,598. They must have liked you.
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by madRiver
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
My Volt brand new was $17,500 tax title and license out the door.
I get free charging and a trouble free ride
MSRP is $35,598. They must have liked you.
I just nagged a local dealer asking for a price match on a leftover 2013 until the dealer caved just before their fiscal year ended.
Was an excellent deal, patience and cash offer occasionally pays off
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by madRiver
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
My Volt brand new was $17,500 tax title and license out the door.
I get free charging and a trouble free ride
MSRP is $35,598. They must have liked you.
I just nagged a local dealer asking for a price match on a leftover 2013 until the dealer caved just before their fiscal year ended.
Was an excellent deal, patience and cash offer occasionally pays off
In the UK and Europe we have had a lot of small diesel engines for a long time.
I've had 3 MK3 Ford Focuses with with a 1500cc 4 cylinder diesel engine with 120bhp and 200lbft of torque and a manual gearbox. They perform really well, great fun to drive and on along motorway run keeping it under 80mph will return over 70mpg in the real world.
I've now got a 2018 Volvo V40 with a 2000cc 4 pot diesel engine, this has 150bhp and 260lbft pushed through a 6 speed torque converter auto and on a 270mile round trip last week using cruise control to maintain 70mph it returned 68.7mpg.
Hybrids in the real world cannot match the level of fuel economy you get unless you're doing constant slow moving short journeys where you can plug them in all the time.
One of my senior managers for years has owned Toyota Rav4's with a 2.2 diesel engine, a manual gearbox and four wheel drive. In the real world these all return 45mpg+. When he went to purchase his current one in 2016, they dropped the four wheel drive option on the diesel so he had to purchase the hybrid with the CVT auto. In the real world, doing the same driving he was doing in his old one he can't even nudge 30mpg.
I've also read numerous articles that Euro 6 emmisions compliant diesels are producing significantly less C02, NOX and particulate matter compared to their small turbocharged GDI petrol counterparts. I've also read up that Euro 6b compliance is going to mean these small turbocharged GDI petrol engines are going to require particulate filters.
I've had 3 MK3 Ford Focuses with with a 1500cc 4 cylinder diesel engine with 120bhp and 200lbft of torque and a manual gearbox. They perform really well, great fun to drive and on along motorway run keeping it under 80mph will return over 70mpg in the real world.
I've now got a 2018 Volvo V40 with a 2000cc 4 pot diesel engine, this has 150bhp and 260lbft pushed through a 6 speed torque converter auto and on a 270mile round trip last week using cruise control to maintain 70mph it returned 68.7mpg.
Hybrids in the real world cannot match the level of fuel economy you get unless you're doing constant slow moving short journeys where you can plug them in all the time.
One of my senior managers for years has owned Toyota Rav4's with a 2.2 diesel engine, a manual gearbox and four wheel drive. In the real world these all return 45mpg+. When he went to purchase his current one in 2016, they dropped the four wheel drive option on the diesel so he had to purchase the hybrid with the CVT auto. In the real world, doing the same driving he was doing in his old one he can't even nudge 30mpg.
I've also read numerous articles that Euro 6 emmisions compliant diesels are producing significantly less C02, NOX and particulate matter compared to their small turbocharged GDI petrol counterparts. I've also read up that Euro 6b compliance is going to mean these small turbocharged GDI petrol engines are going to require particulate filters.
Originally Posted by madRiver
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
Yep. Unless they are yuppie tree huggers and buy it.
I don't understand who spend $33k - $38k on an electric economy roots car. That is massive coin when gasoline is under $3 gallon and ton less hassle.
👋 👋
Yep. Unless they are yuppie tree huggers and buy it.
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
When he went to purchase his current one in 2016, they dropped the four wheel drive option on the diesel so he had to purchase the hybrid with the CVT auto. In the real world, doing the same driving he was doing in his old one he can't even nudge 30mpg.
That sounds... odd. With our 2.5i Forester, I can often get 40+mpg on long highway trips when there's no headwind, and it's averaged 33mpg over the last 5000 miles of town and highway driving. At 50mph on back roads it can get close to 50mpg (I've actually seen the display hit 55mpg for a short period on a flat, straight road in good weather).
So I can't see why the RAV4 would be so much worse.
(UK mpg, BTW, not US mpg)
When he went to purchase his current one in 2016, they dropped the four wheel drive option on the diesel so he had to purchase the hybrid with the CVT auto. In the real world, doing the same driving he was doing in his old one he can't even nudge 30mpg.
That sounds... odd. With our 2.5i Forester, I can often get 40+mpg on long highway trips when there's no headwind, and it's averaged 33mpg over the last 5000 miles of town and highway driving. At 50mph on back roads it can get close to 50mpg (I've actually seen the display hit 55mpg for a short period on a flat, straight road in good weather).
So I can't see why the RAV4 would be so much worse.
(UK mpg, BTW, not US mpg)
Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
When he went to purchase his current one in 2016, they dropped the four wheel drive option on the diesel so he had to purchase the hybrid with the CVT auto. In the real world, doing the same driving he was doing in his old one he can't even nudge 30mpg.
That sounds... odd. With our 2.5i Forester, I can often get 40+mpg on long highway trips when there's no headwind, and it's averaged 33mpg over the last 5000 miles of town and highway driving. At 50mph on back roads it can get close to 50mpg (I've actually seen the display hit 55mpg for a short period on a flat, straight road in good weather).
So I can't see why the RAV4 would be so much worse.
(UK mpg, BTW, not US mpg)
Your Forester isn't carrying around several hundred kilos worth of batteries and electric motors however.
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
When he went to purchase his current one in 2016, they dropped the four wheel drive option on the diesel so he had to purchase the hybrid with the CVT auto. In the real world, doing the same driving he was doing in his old one he can't even nudge 30mpg.
That sounds... odd. With our 2.5i Forester, I can often get 40+mpg on long highway trips when there's no headwind, and it's averaged 33mpg over the last 5000 miles of town and highway driving. At 50mph on back roads it can get close to 50mpg (I've actually seen the display hit 55mpg for a short period on a flat, straight road in good weather).
So I can't see why the RAV4 would be so much worse.
(UK mpg, BTW, not US mpg)
Your Forester isn't carrying around several hundred kilos worth of batteries and electric motors however.
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
I just nagged a local dealer asking for a price match on a leftover 2013 until the dealer caved just before their fiscal year ended.
Was an excellent deal, patience and cash offer occasionally pays off
That was good for you, but doesn't do much for the vast majority of other folks that may want to consider purchasing one.
I just nagged a local dealer asking for a price match on a leftover 2013 until the dealer caved just before their fiscal year ended.
Was an excellent deal, patience and cash offer occasionally pays off
That was good for you, but doesn't do much for the vast majority of other folks that may want to consider purchasing one.
All new cars are a "cash deal" for the dealer. My last purchase of a 2018 fleet van was financed and the deal was cut when the bank sent a check in full to the dealer.
They had electric car technology in the early 1900s........ if people wanted electric cars, we would have had electric cars!
The the only reason people these days want electric cars is because the taxpayer incentives. When you break it down as to what electric cars take to make, the amount of abiotic hydrocarbons used is a wash..... c'mon people, how do you think that battery gets charged on your taxpayer funded electric car? I'm glad they killed it! Now trump just needs to remove all federal funding from GM and let them fend for themselves..... their CEO makes a $22,000,000.00 SALARY! why are you getting taxpayer funding when you have several hundred employees making in the millions? Taxpayers need to be slapped with the STUPID STICK for not seeing how their taxpayer dollars are just being given out to produce a product and you still have to pay for the product that you have already paid for......
![[Linked Image]](http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/Mobile%20Uploads/ZomboMeme%2016122018123939_zpsiyyionek.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/Mobile%20Uploads/ZomboMeme%2016122018123737_zpshcdhcrjw.jpg "[Linked Image]")
The the only reason people these days want electric cars is because the taxpayer incentives. When you break it down as to what electric cars take to make, the amount of abiotic hydrocarbons used is a wash..... c'mon people, how do you think that battery gets charged on your taxpayer funded electric car? I'm glad they killed it! Now trump just needs to remove all federal funding from GM and let them fend for themselves..... their CEO makes a $22,000,000.00 SALARY! why are you getting taxpayer funding when you have several hundred employees making in the millions? Taxpayers need to be slapped with the STUPID STICK for not seeing how their taxpayer dollars are just being given out to produce a product and you still have to pay for the product that you have already paid for......
![[Linked Image]](http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justinmargist/media/Mobile%20Uploads/ZomboMeme%2016122018123939_zpsiyyionek.jpg.html "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justinmargist/media/Mobile%20Uploads/ZomboMeme%2016122018123737_zpshcdhcrjw.jpg.html "[Linked Image]")
Originally Posted by SeaJay
That was good for you, but doesn't do much for the vast majority of other folks that may want to consider purchasing one.
I only got the deal because many other folks got the same deal in other areas and posted about it
my documentation of the fact was what got the deal.
Also looking at new car prices cheap econo boxes like a Prius are around $30,000 msrp if you have any options added, accord is even worse and a lot of cheap Kia cars are over $30,000
The Volt is a much more livable car than a Prius and optioned out only a couple grand different considering no one pays MSRP for a Volt, every Volt buyer gets $7500-$15000 in subsidies.
Only exceptions are the Nissans that blow the cvt every 50,000 miles, the Spark that blows the cvt and the Mitsubishi Mirage
Originally Posted by Jmoney7269
They had electric car technology in the early 1900s........ if people wanted electric cars, we would have had electric cars!
The the only reason people these days want electric cars is because the taxpayer incentives.
Meh Ive always owned an electric car, it was my first car , a 1981 Comutacar, MSRP was $2800, though I didn't pay that.
Cost per mile was around a penny
only maintenance was batteries and brakes, insurance was $80 a year
there were no such things as subsidies then.
It was my daily driver for a long time because it was a fun car, brought a smile to my face every day, had a parade follow me off the highway when I went for groceries.
Thing was very simple, light and easy to maintain top speed was all of 50 mph unless you had wind and a downward slope.
Thing is in my garage but needs batteries.
That was good for you, but doesn't do much for the vast majority of other folks that may want to consider purchasing one.
I only got the deal because many other folks got the same deal in other areas and posted about it
my documentation of the fact was what got the deal.
Also looking at new car prices cheap econo boxes like a Prius are around $30,000 msrp if you have any options added, accord is even worse and a lot of cheap Kia cars are over $30,000
The Volt is a much more livable car than a Prius and optioned out only a couple grand different considering no one pays MSRP for a Volt, every Volt buyer gets $7500-$15000 in subsidies.
Only exceptions are the Nissans that blow the cvt every 50,000 miles, the Spark that blows the cvt and the Mitsubishi Mirage
Originally Posted by Jmoney7269
They had electric car technology in the early 1900s........ if people wanted electric cars, we would have had electric cars!
The the only reason people these days want electric cars is because the taxpayer incentives.
Meh Ive always owned an electric car, it was my first car , a 1981 Comutacar, MSRP was $2800, though I didn't pay that.
Cost per mile was around a penny
only maintenance was batteries and brakes, insurance was $80 a year
there were no such things as subsidies then.
It was my daily driver for a long time because it was a fun car, brought a smile to my face every day, had a parade follow me off the highway when I went for groceries.
Thing was very simple, light and easy to maintain top speed was all of 50 mph unless you had wind and a downward slope.
Thing is in my garage but needs batteries.
Originally Posted by Jmoney7269
They had electric car technology in the early 1900s........ if people wanted electric cars, we would have had electric cars!
We haven't had electric cars because the battery technology was never good enough - and now it is and it's getting better by the day.
I want an electric car because an electric motor is a vastly superior way to power a car vs. internal combustion. The silence, smoothness, torque, throttle response, acceleration, low maintenance, etc. can't be matched by gas or diesel.
They had electric car technology in the early 1900s........ if people wanted electric cars, we would have had electric cars!
We haven't had electric cars because the battery technology was never good enough - and now it is and it's getting better by the day.
I want an electric car because an electric motor is a vastly superior way to power a car vs. internal combustion. The silence, smoothness, torque, throttle response, acceleration, low maintenance, etc. can't be matched by gas or diesel.
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Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by Jmoney7269
They had electric car technology in the early 1900s........ if people wanted electric cars, we would have had electric cars!
We haven't had electric cars because the battery technology was never good enough - and now it is and it's getting better by the day.
I want an electric car because an electric motor is a vastly superior way to power a car vs. internal combustion. The silence, smoothness, torque, throttle response, acceleration, low maintenance, etc. can't be matched by gas or diesel.
Lmao except that a diesel or gas engine can drive continuously........ and hundreds of thousands of miles .
A battery car still has to be charged with power that a overwhelming majority is produced with hydrocarbons. All of the machines that built that car are powered by electricity made by hydrocarbons.... I agree that they may be quieter and smooth but eventually that battery will have to be replaced and I'm sure well before 100k miles or less than 10 years, if they are still around..... what you will have to spend in the long run for upkeep on electric is just not worth it to me....
Prime example of what I'm talking about is my buddy has a prevost bus that has two 4000 watt trace 24volt inverters with 4 huge lifeline AGM batteries per inverter (8 total)and he can run his heaters or A/Cs, residential fridge, all of his lights for about 4-8 hours. Then he has to fire up his 20kw power tech diesel generator to charge them all back up or if the demand is enough he will just run the generator full time to and the inverters supplement the generator. That fancy system of inverters, huge battery banks, huge generator, etc is about $50k worth of nonsense. My coach has a 10kw generator and a small golf cart battery bank that can run a microwave or coffee maker and the aquahot heater...... and all of that machinery cost less than $15k. Granted it's no prevost, but his junk is always in the shop at the cost of $4k-$20k to fix..... and I'm always on the road and can fix dang near anything that breaks on my zephyr myself. Point is that batteries are cool, but in no way can sustain the simple fact that batteries just cant do what a combustion engine does. Shoot even a train that is moved by huge electrical motors still needs a huge diesel engine to give them power.....
![[Linked Image]](http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/FB_IMG_1464881371947.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Originally Posted by Jmoney7269
They had electric car technology in the early 1900s........ if people wanted electric cars, we would have had electric cars!
We haven't had electric cars because the battery technology was never good enough - and now it is and it's getting better by the day.
I want an electric car because an electric motor is a vastly superior way to power a car vs. internal combustion. The silence, smoothness, torque, throttle response, acceleration, low maintenance, etc. can't be matched by gas or diesel.
Lmao except that a diesel or gas engine can drive continuously........ and hundreds of thousands of miles .
A battery car still has to be charged with power that a overwhelming majority is produced with hydrocarbons. All of the machines that built that car are powered by electricity made by hydrocarbons.... I agree that they may be quieter and smooth but eventually that battery will have to be replaced and I'm sure well before 100k miles or less than 10 years, if they are still around..... what you will have to spend in the long run for upkeep on electric is just not worth it to me....
Prime example of what I'm talking about is my buddy has a prevost bus that has two 4000 watt trace 24volt inverters with 4 huge lifeline AGM batteries per inverter (8 total)and he can run his heaters or A/Cs, residential fridge, all of his lights for about 4-8 hours. Then he has to fire up his 20kw power tech diesel generator to charge them all back up or if the demand is enough he will just run the generator full time to and the inverters supplement the generator. That fancy system of inverters, huge battery banks, huge generator, etc is about $50k worth of nonsense. My coach has a 10kw generator and a small golf cart battery bank that can run a microwave or coffee maker and the aquahot heater...... and all of that machinery cost less than $15k. Granted it's no prevost, but his junk is always in the shop at the cost of $4k-$20k to fix..... and I'm always on the road and can fix dang near anything that breaks on my zephyr myself. Point is that batteries are cool, but in no way can sustain the simple fact that batteries just cant do what a combustion engine does. Shoot even a train that is moved by huge electrical motors still needs a huge diesel engine to give them power.....
![[Linked Image]](http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justinmargist/media/FB_IMG_1464881371947.jpg.html "[Linked Image]")
Have a Volt at work. It is fun to drive and gets great mileage. Seat is terrible. Feels like I'm sitting on the adjustment lever or something. I can't stand it for long drives. Well I Can actually because it's free for work use.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
https://insideevs.com/general-motors-shut-down-chevy-volt-factory/amp/
Apparently we may end up with electric SUV's? Be interesting to see where this goes, since GM's huge cuts are apparently taking place to allow for a transition to them producing EV's, which then seems contrary with them axing an EV
Fashions change, sometimes quickly.
For what used to be and pretty much remains a full-line manufacturer to put all of its eggs in a single basket based upon the current market strikes me as short-sighted.
GM and Ford seem to be setting themselves up for their next disaster which either or both might not survive.
Neither company has had anything resembling great senior management in recent decades, or it has at least appeared that way to me.
https://insideevs.com/general-motors-shut-down-chevy-volt-factory/amp/
Apparently we may end up with electric SUV's? Be interesting to see where this goes, since GM's huge cuts are apparently taking place to allow for a transition to them producing EV's, which then seems contrary with them axing an EV
Fashions change, sometimes quickly.
For what used to be and pretty much remains a full-line manufacturer to put all of its eggs in a single basket based upon the current market strikes me as short-sighted.
GM and Ford seem to be setting themselves up for their next disaster which either or both might not survive.
Neither company has had anything resembling great senior management in recent decades, or it has at least appeared that way to me.
Originally Posted by E365
We haven't had electric cars because the battery technology was never good enough - and now it is and it's getting better by the day.
No, it's not. Until an electric car can drive at least as far as a typical driver can drive in a day without having to stop to recharge, it's not good enough. And there's no sign of that happening any time soon.
Every week there's a new 'battery breakthrough' in research, but in the real world every decade or so we get a new battery tech that's a bit better than the last. We're still a long way from making batteries that are good enough to replace ICE cars for the majority of drivers.
I'm guessing you'll say 'yes, but most people only drive a few miles around town most days'. But we had electric town cars decades ago. No-one bought them because... they could only drive around town.
We haven't had electric cars because the battery technology was never good enough - and now it is and it's getting better by the day.
No, it's not. Until an electric car can drive at least as far as a typical driver can drive in a day without having to stop to recharge, it's not good enough. And there's no sign of that happening any time soon.
Every week there's a new 'battery breakthrough' in research, but in the real world every decade or so we get a new battery tech that's a bit better than the last. We're still a long way from making batteries that are good enough to replace ICE cars for the majority of drivers.
I'm guessing you'll say 'yes, but most people only drive a few miles around town most days'. But we had electric town cars decades ago. No-one bought them because... they could only drive around town.
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