Low NOACK, SAPS and TEOST oil for DI engine

[Bailes1992]

I would be using the cheapest branded oil you can find with the approval you require to maintain your warranty for the time being.

It would be more beneficial for you to use a fuel additive or premium fuel that contains PEA to minimise intake deposits.

Once you're out of warranty you can then look at different oils. My choice would be Amsoil Heavy Duty Diesel 10w30 with SAPS of a maximum 1% and a NOACK of just 4.2%.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
I have posted research articles here that lower NOACK volatility (oil evaporation) doesn't decrease the GDI IVD (intake-valve deposits). They are caused by the PCV oil mist (liquid droplets), not oil vapor (gas molecules).

In fact, there is some evidence that lower NOACK volatility actually increases the IVD. That's because the lower the NOACK, the more time the liquid oil spends on the intake valves and that gives more time for the additives in the oil and fuel to deposit on the intake valves. Therefore, a 0W-20 with a higher NOACK can actually cause less IVD than a 5W-20 with a lower NOACK.


Now you have me wanting to try the M1 0W-20 EP all the more.

But as useless as some on here claim that aftermarket add-on oil catch cans/air-oil separators actually are, the better ones out there have to help at least a little bit with the (especially high factory boost level) TDI intake valve deposit problems, no??

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
I have posted research articles here that lower NOACK volatility (oil evaporation) doesn't decrease the GDI IVD (intake-valve deposits). They are caused by the PCV oil mist (liquid droplets), not oil vapor (gas molecules).

In fact, there is some evidence that lower NOACK volatility actually increases the IVD. That's because the lower the NOACK, the more time the liquid oil spends on the intake valves and that gives more time for the additives in the oil and fuel to deposit on the intake valves. Therefore, a 0W-20 with a higher NOACK can actually cause less IVD than a 5W-20 with a lower NOACK.


I've read lots of studies and papers concerning this and not one comes to this conclusion.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I have posted research articles here that lower NOACK volatility (oil evaporation) doesn't decrease the GDI IVD (intake-valve deposits). They are caused by the PCV oil mist (liquid droplets), not oil vapor (gas molecules).

In fact, there is some evidence that lower NOACK volatility actually increases the IVD. That's because the lower the NOACK, the more time the liquid oil spends on the intake valves and that gives more time for the additives in the oil and fuel to deposit on the intake valves. Therefore, a 0W-20 with a higher NOACK can actually cause less IVD than a 5W-20 with a lower NOACK.


I've read lots of studies and papers concerning this and not one comes to this conclusion.





I suppose like anything, studies can conflict with each other. One day pepper is bad for you, the next day it's good for you.

There is a huge study industry. Maybe like statistics, studies can be tweaked to get the results wanted.

 

[wemay]

Absolutely true. But the vast majority agree, lower volatility is an avenue towards lessening IVD. On a tangent though, there are a good number of owners on various boards who cuss the fact they've been going with very low Noack oils and still got the deposits. This whole thing may be a crap#shoot.

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by wemay
Absolutely true. But the vast majority agree, lower volatility is an avenue towards lessening IVD. On a tangent though, there are a good number of owners on various boards who cuss the fact they've been going with very low Noack oils and still got the deposits. This whole thing may be a crap#shoot.


I think the differences between typical noacks may not large enough to make any significant ivd differences in a long run! Let's say one oil has 9.8 noack vs another with 8.5 ... can the differences in ivd be that significant after 7 years and 100K milds? Even if you go with a very expensive oil (6.0 noack) compared with a typical let's say 9.5 noack that the members use, after 100K miles you may have iv with "lots of deposits" vs. iv with "a lot of deposits" on your hand. Basically they are both bad!

Only if we had a 0 noack oil

to test with!

 

[ChrisD46]

*What is this "solvent business" technology you refer to with Toyota and Ford DI engines - please explain ? Now I have heard of haing a PFI intake valve along with DI intake valves to clean intakes - but never this other solvent technology you refer to ?
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Quote
"I have posted research articles here that lower NOACK volatility (oil evaporation) doesn't decrease the GDI IVD (intake-valve deposits). They are caused by the PCV oil mist (liquid droplets), not oil vapor (gas molecules).

In fact, there is some evidence that lower NOACK volatility actually increases the IVD. That's because the lower the NOACK, the more time the liquid oil spends on the intake valves and that gives more time for the additives in the oil and fuel to deposit on the intake valves. Therefore, a 0W-20 with a higher NOACK can actually cause less IVD than a 5W-20 with a lower NOACK."

The description of the mechanism of the oil carryover makes sense. As oil vapor is not likely to carry additives in the gaseous state.
However, Toyota and Ford have addressed this issue with direct injection. They have this cool technology that allows a solvent to be periodically injected upstream of the intake valve, keeping deposits at bay. The solvent is then combusted and used to propel the cylinder downward. Reuse, recycle. Solvent fuel and technology.

BMW uses series of crankcase wiers to knock out oil droplets that could get pushed through to the PCv under turbo boost. Don't know sold it without an issue running BMW LL 01 oils it's entire life.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*What is this "solvent business" technology you refer to with Toyota and Ford DI engines - please explain ? Now I have heard of haing a PFI intake valve along with DI intake valves to clean intakes - but never this other solvent technology you refer to ?
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Quote
"I have posted research articles here that lower NOACK volatility (oil evaporation) doesn't decrease the GDI IVD (intake-valve deposits). They are caused by the PCV oil mist (liquid droplets), not oil vapor (gas molecules).

In fact, there is some evidence that lower NOACK volatility actually increases the IVD. That's because the lower the NOACK, the more time the liquid oil spends on the intake valves and that gives more time for the additives in the oil and fuel to deposit on the intake valves. Therefore, a 0W-20 with a higher NOACK can actually cause less IVD than a 5W-20 with a lower NOACK."

The description of the mechanism of the oil carryover makes sense. As oil vapor is not likely to carry additives in the gaseous state.
However, Toyota and Ford have addressed this issue with direct injection. They have this cool technology that allows a solvent to be periodically injected upstream of the intake valve, keeping deposits at bay. The solvent is then combusted and used to propel the cylinder downward. Reuse, recycle. Solvent fuel and technology.

BMW uses series of crankcase wiers to knock out oil droplets that could get pushed through to the PCv under turbo boost. Don't know sold it without an issue running BMW LL 01 oils it's entire life.



Yes, I would like to hear about this as well, since the ONLY 'solution' I've ever heard of by the manufacturers is to have a piggybacked PORT injection system, in conjunction with their DIRECT injection systems, on their engines, recently, right from the factory.

The aftermarket for my car/engine offers both piggybacked PFI systems, as well as add-on WMI (water-methanol injection) systems, both of which obviously must be tuned into the ECM's programming functions.

As far as I've heard (unless this has changed VERY recently), Ford does not offer a solution the IVD problems on their TDI engines, save for total head replacement, no, not even the 'standard' Bimmer/VDUB group walnut shell blasting procedure is 'approved', although many do this anyway.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Calm down, it is tongue in cheek about port injected along with direct injected from the factory. DS4 for example.
The solvent is gasoline.

Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*What is this "solvent business" technology you refer to with Toyota and Ford DI engines - please explain ? Now I have heard of haing a PFI intake valve along with DI intake valves to clean intakes - but never this other solvent technology you refer to ?
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Quote
"I have posted research articles here that lower NOACK volatility (oil evaporation) doesn't decrease the GDI IVD (intake-valve deposits). They are caused by the PCV oil mist (liquid droplets), not oil vapor (gas molecules).

In fact, there is some evidence that lower NOACK volatility actually increases the IVD. That's because the lower the NOACK, the more time the liquid oil spends on the intake valves and that gives more time for the additives in the oil and fuel to deposit on the intake valves. Therefore, a 0W-20 with a higher NOACK can actually cause less IVD than a 5W-20 with a lower NOACK."

The description of the mechanism of the oil carryover makes sense. As oil vapor is not likely to carry additives in the gaseous state.
However, Toyota and Ford have addressed this issue with direct injection. They have this cool technology that allows a solvent to be periodically injected upstream of the intake valve, keeping deposits at bay. The solvent is then combusted and used to propel the cylinder downward. Reuse, recycle. Solvent fuel and technology.

BMW uses series of crankcase wiers to knock out oil droplets that could get pushed through to the PCv under turbo boost. Don't know sold it without an issue running BMW LL 01 oils it's entire life.

 

[Gokhan]

AAA conducted a synthetic vs. conventional oil study a while back. If you exclude the two conventional oils that didn't meet the API maximum limits, conventional oils did better than synthetic oils in both the TEOST MHT deposit test and the TEOST 33C deposit test.

Intake-valve deposits are mainly caused by additives and not so much by the base oil. As I said before, lower NOACK (such as with synthetic oil) seems to result in more deposits because the oil spends more time on hot surfaces before it can evaporate, which gives more time for the additives to deposit on the hot surfaces.

Synthetic oil is more for extending oil-change intervals (OCIs) because of slower oil oxidation or cleaning pistons and valvetrain (cleaning with especially ester-containing oils such as Mobil 1).

Your best bet to reduce intake-valve deposits is probably to look for a lower-SAPS oil, such as ACEA C3 or dexos2. There are even lower-SAPS oils such as C1 and C4 but they aren't widely available. You probably want to stay away from full-SAPS A3/B4 oils.

AAA synthetic-oil study

 

[dailydriver]

Did ANY of these studies ever determine exactly which additives, and in what concentrations, resulted in the most, (or least) IVDs in TDI setups, or do they all just use the blanket statements of ALL additives, regardless of their concentration levels, and use/purpose function?

Yes, LSPI is a TOTALLY unrelated problem, but on that problem topic, there ARE specific additives either adding to, or lessening the actual problem (i.e.; high calcium levels for the higher LSPI incident additive {and possibly others, not sure}, higher magnesium, moly/titanium{?}, and even higher levels of the 'catcon killin' ZDDP, as the LSPI reducing type additives) as per actual set oil specs/standards.

 

[Gokhan]

LSPI is primarily caused by the calcium detergent -- hence why SN PLUS oils have magnesium with reduced calcium.

GDI intake-valve deposit (IVD) is a complicated business. One thing that's clear is that lower NOACK (= thicker oil) increases the IVD, as the oil sits longer on the valves before it can evaporate. Therefore, if you have a GDI engine, you might want to stick with 0W-16 or 0W-20 if they are recommended viscosities. Conventional wisdom -- thicker oil and lower NOACK protects better -- fails here.

This is very similar to fuel-caused IVD in port-fuel-injection engines (PFI). They found that fuels containing high-boiling-point (low-volatility) compounds were the main source of the deposits:

"The deposit analyses suggested aromatics (including PAH) with a high boiling point or used at high concentrations tend to remain on the valve surface as a deposit."

However, they also found that:

"A high final boiling point of the fuel does not necessarily make a fuel more prone to IVD formation, but rather it depends on the chemical composition of the high boiling components."

Meaning that, in addition to having a lower boiling point (higher volatility), the oxidation stability (quality) of the fuel compounds is also critical to reducing the IVD. In GDI engines, where oil and EGR are causing the IVD, the analog is that a higher-quality base oil (PAO or GTL) that is thin (higher NOACK, such as 0W-xx oils) is needed to reduce the IVD.

An Intake Valve Deposit (IVD) Engin...t Build-Up Mechanism Using a Real Engine
Sandro Gail -- Shell Global Solutions (Deutschland) GmbH
Takashi Nomura -- Toyota Motor Corp.
Hitoshi Hayashi -- Toyota Motor Corp.
Yuichiro Miura -- Showa Shell Sekiyu K K
Katsumi Yoshida -- Showa Shell Sekiyu K K
Vinod Natarajan -- Shell Global Solutions (US) Inc.
October 8, 2017

Therefore, to reduce GDI IVD: Use a (1) higher-NOACK 0W-xx oil [meaning thinnest base-oil possible] (2) with the highest-quality base oil and (3) lowest SAPS. Avoid full-SAPS (FS) oils such as A3/B4. If 5W-20 is recommended, use 0W-20 to have higher NOACK. If 5W-30 is recommended, use 0W-30.

There are several components to IVD: "a combination of engine oil, engine-wear elements, unburned fuel, and exhaust gas contaminants" according to the following nice SAE/Afton paper. Note that EGR is also a critical factor. As I noted before, it's the PCV oil mist, not oil vapor, that forms the deposits.

Formation of Intake Valve Deposits in Gasoline Direct Injection Engines
Gregory Guinther -- Afton Chemical Corporation
Scott Smith -- Afton Chemical Corporation
October 17, 2016

SUMMARY/CONCLUSIONS

* A standardized, vehicle-based GDI IVD test has been developed that is both repeatable and responsive to known additive chemistry.

* Higher engine loads lead to an increased rate of deposit formation.

* IVD formation in this protocol is an oil-related process, and the majority of the oil that finds its way onto the intake valves comes from the PCV system.

* The oil leaving the crankcase through the PCV system is whole oil containing additives and contaminants (not distilled base oil vapor which contains no additives).

* PCV gas flow in the intake manifold is inconsistently distributed among the eight runners of the manifold leading to the valves.

* Inhibiting the carbon-formation process lessens the rate of deposit formation on the intake valves.

* Oil consumption past the rings bring both additive and nonadditive elements into the combustion chamber where they are incorporated into the exhaust-gas particles.

* Particles found in EGR exacerbate deposit formation rate.

* Particles found in EGR appear to incorporate combusted oil additive components, engine wear metals, and ambient air contamination.

 

[Kjmack]

So if you car calls for A3/B4 oil like VW 502 what do you go with a C3 0W30 ?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Isn't this all for not with Toyota DS4 systems with as well,as Fords dual injection systems?

So buy a Ford or a Toyota and enjoy the engineering solution, and not a weak administrative bandaid, of trying to find an oil that does less harm for intake valve deposits.
Then do like me and run M1 0w40 in your GDI toyota with a smile on your face and clean valves thanks to top tier gasoline.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Isn't this all for not with Toyota DS4 systems with as well,as Fords dual injection systems?

So buy a Ford or a Toyota and enjoy the engineering solution, and not a weak administrative bandaid, of trying to find an oil that does less harm for intake valve deposits.
Then do like me and run M1 0w40 in your GDI toyota with a smile on your face and clean valves thanks to top tier gasoline.


The current Mk8 Fiesta ST available ONLY in England/Europe/rest of world (thanks for NOTHING, now SUVs/trucks exclusively in the U.S., Ford

) does have the dual injection system on it from the factory.

I am seriously thinking about adding an aftermarket port injection system to mine, even with the factory turbo, and will absolutely do such if I ever go to a bigger turbo in the future (to not 'run out' of fuel on the factory DI system, which would limit the tuned power), once out of the power train warranty.