Putting together a groups 3/4/5 synthetic list

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by benjy
you can consider the few that say they have group IV or V base oils are letting you know to justify their price, + many like Amsoil say NOTHING + answer NO questions, hence my using mostly typical group III oils @ $5 a qt!!. of course how much of what base oils + the additives are most important! Mola of course + a few others ACTUALLY know whats better or not but their job REQUIRES not saying whats what. i thank him + the other pros for the info they are ALLOWED to give!!

benjy, there is pao in the Amsoil SS. Not sure how much but it's in there. Every one of your posts has the same rant about Amsoil and their non disclosure of pao content. Enough. Boy is that newbie bowtie guy ever off to a bad start!
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Gokhan

I made a base-oil-quality index (BOQI) list a while back, which some people like and others don't. PAO scores the highest in the list, followed by GTL, then by Group III, and then by Group II.

Most are Group III. M1 FS 0W-40 is GTL. M1 0W-20 (Especially the EP and A
grin2.gif
P) is PAO. The only Amsoil that I know to be PAO is Signature Series -- most others are Group III. Pennzoil is GTL.


How can one create ANY Index or do any correlation if one can not know the exact composition of a finished oil, or know its base oil composition?



iirc
boqi = k / (noak * ccs)
k is a constant and maybe = 1? not sure about the exact value!

Therefore as long as you know ccs and noak, you can calculate the boqi.
No knowledge of exact composition of finished oil and/or base oil required if you have the above data.

That subject (boqi) for some reason caught my attention in old days and I'm just repeating what I recall ... I had a hard time with this boqi concept! I don't have any knowledge in oil chemistry, however I don't think such a complex chemistry including so many other parameters & variables can be graded by only 2 parameters! Logically it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I get over it some day
grin2.gif
 
noack not noak ... told u don't have much oil knowledge!
shocked2.gif
grin2.gif

Also ccs viscosity

It didn't let me edit my previous post!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by kschachn
bowtie4by said:
Also, it appears to me as though it's still called "European (Car) Formula" along with the "FS". What does FS stand for, anyway?



I'll take a stab at this.

Short version: The FS = Full Synthetic and comes from the phrase "Advanced Full Synthetic" on the bottle. It's part of their regular Mobil1 line of synthetics (as opposed to special variants like Mobil1 Annual Protection.")

Longer version:

If you look here: https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/synthetic
You'll notice that the different Mobil1 oils are labeled in the form "Mobil1 " . For example: Mobil1 Annual Protection or Mobil1 High Mileage.

Each of those oil sub brands carries a unique name and bottle label coloring/design (with the exception of the Formula M variant which is the same as regular Mobil1 in design and color.)

Once you click on one of those links you can find what weights are offered in that sub brand.

You'll notice you won't find the European Car Formula called out as a particular sub brand.
Instead the European Car Formula is found under the regular Mobil1 sub brand. This is the only sub brand not to carry a tag .

If you look under that Mobil1 sub-brand, find the 0-w40. It doesn't have an accurate picture of the label but does carry a lot of European certifications so I'm sure it's the European Car Formula one.

I believe the usage of "FS" refers to the base Mobil1 synthetic line. The FS comes from the phrase Advanced Full Synthetic on the bottle.

If you use Mobil's oil finder tool, and search on a VW, it will suggest this oil and they refer to it as "Mobil 1â„¢ FS 0W-40".

My explanation is based on just poking around on their pages and not based on any official word from Mobil.

-A

Mobil1FS.png
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted by amblerman
Short version: The FS = Full Synthetic

LOL!

So is it an admission by XOM that only that particular oil in their lineup is full synthetic, and all their other oils aren't? And what does "full synthetic" even mean these days?

AFAIK, FS stands for Full SAPS, but XOM would never confirm what it actually stands for.
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Gokhan

I made a base-oil-quality index (BOQI) list a while back, which some people like and others don't. PAO scores the highest in the list, followed by GTL, then by Group III, and then by Group II.

Most are Group III. M1 FS 0W-40 is GTL. M1 0W-20 (Especially the EP and A
grin2.gif
P) is PAO. The only Amsoil that I know to be PAO is Signature Series -- most others are Group III. Pennzoil is GTL.


How can one create ANY Index or do any correlation if one can not know the exact composition of a finished oil, or know its base oil composition?

iirc
boqi = k / (noak * ccs)
k is a constant and maybe = 1? not sure about the exact value!
Therefore as long as you know ccs and noak, you can calculate the boqi.
No knowledge of exact composition of finished oil and/or base oil required if you have the above data.
That subject (boqi) for some reason caught my attention in old days and I'm just repeating what I recall ... I had a hard time with this boqi concept! I don't have any knowledge in oil chemistry, however I don't think such a complex chemistry including so many other parameters & variables can be graded by only 2 parameters! Logically it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I get over it some day
grin2.gif


CCS is measured at different temperatures for different W grades.
How do you compare a 0WXX to a 10WXX this way?
 
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
CCS is measured at different temperatures for different W grades.
How do you compare a 0WXX to a 10WXX this way?

It's definitely harder to compare different viscosity grades and a lot more useful within the same viscosity range. Therefore, I tabulated them by the viscosity. However, I estimated different multiplication constants for different xW ranges to have a rough cross comparison.
 
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by amblerman
Short version: The FS = Full Synthetic

LOL!

So is it an admission by XOM that only that particular oil in their lineup is full synthetic, and all their other oils aren't? And what does "full synthetic" even mean these days?

AFAIK, FS stands for Full SAPS, but XOM would never confirm what it actually stands for.


My attempt at an explanation wasn't that only the regular Mobil1 was "Full Synthetic". (as you said... what does "Full Synthetic" even mean these days...) On the Mobil1 page for Full Synthetic oils, all the labels appear to contain the phrase "Advanced Full Synthetic".

Instead, I was thinking that referring to the regular Mobil1 line as Mobil1 FS was due to the fact that the regular Mobil1 doesn't have any variant tag as part of the name. When we refer to Mobil1 AP and people know we're taking about Mobil1 Annual Protection. But if someone said "I use Mobil1", a natural question would be "Well which one."

And I thought the FS was just a way to refer to the regular Mobil1 without saying "You know.. the regular plain Mobil1".

Depending on how the "Find your oil" search tool returns the results, I have seen it output "Mobil1 FS" but I don't know if FS really means anything other than a label. I took it to mean FS = regular Mobil1 just like AP = Mobil1 Annual Protection. That is all.
-A
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by bowtie4by
By the way, MrWideTires, I support your endeavor. I'd love to see an Excel Spreadsheet detailing true synthetics (IV and V). Let's expose the III for the frauds that they are.

Of course you do, "newbie".

What a joke.


Thank you for the warm welcome.

By the way, I have been reading BITOG for 10 years.
Only recently did I Login.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Anyone who thinks that turbine oils are in any way superior or even suitable for ICE has no clue. Please stop with the nonsense.


Interesting. Tell me more.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Gokhan

I made a base-oil-quality index (BOQI) list a while back, which some people like and others don't. PAO scores the highest in the list, followed by GTL, then by Group III, and then by Group II.

Most are Group III. M1 FS 0W-40 is GTL. M1 0W-20 (Especially the EP and AP) is PAO. The only Amsoil that I know to be PAO is Signature Series -- most others are Group III. Pennzoil is GTL.


How can one create ANY Index or do any correlation if one can not know the exact composition of a finished oil, or know its base oil composition?



Here is where I may have made an error: I presumed that the MSDS/SDS provided ranges of base products, such as "40-50% pao." Am I wrong?
I will delete any statement that I have said in error, as I want BITOG to be accurate and true.
 
Originally Posted by bowtie4by
Originally Posted by MolaKule

How can one create ANY Index or do any correlation if one can not know the exact composition of a finished oil, or know its base oil composition?

Here is where I may have made an error: I presumed that the MSDS/SDS provided ranges of base products, such as "40-50% pao." Am I wrong?
I will delete any statement that I have said in error, as I want BITOG to be accurate and true.


Here are two examples that provide no useful information as to base oil composition. The first is a current MSDS for a current Mobil 1 branded product. The second is the current MSDS of Rotella T6 5W-40. Any MSDS/SDS is useless for determining the formulation of an oil. They do not require non hazardous components to be reported. Many, if not most base oils used in motor oil are not classified hazardous.

https://www.mobil1racingstore.com/Content/Images/uploaded/MSDS_84085.pdf

http://shop.sclubricants.com/pub/media/pds/shell/Shell-Rotella-T6-5W-40-msds.pdf

Ed
 
Garak, EdHacket provided an updated MSDS for T6 5W-40 dated 8/28/2018. It is different from the MSDS upon which I based my suggestion. Thanks to both of you for your responses.
 
Yes. That always brings up another problem, even if the data sheets were completely forthcoming - reformulations. I've mentioned before, too, to note that there really isn't any enforcement action with respect to what base stocks are listed on an MSDS. Fighting a fire or cleaning up a spill is the same between a Supertech monograde as it is for Red Line.
 
Originally Posted by bowtie4by
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I made a base-oil-quality index (BOQI) list a while back, which some people like and others don't. PAO scores the highest in the list, followed by GTL, then by Group III, and then by Group II.

Most are Group III. M1 FS 0W-40 is GTL. M1 0W-20 (Especially the EP and AP) is PAO. The only Amsoil that I know to be PAO is Signature Series -- most others are Group III. Pennzoil is GTL.

How can one create ANY Index or do any correlation if one can not know the exact composition of a finished oil, or know its base oil composition?

Here is where I may have made an error: I presumed that the MSDS/SDS provided ranges of base products, such as "40-50% pao." Am I wrong?
I will delete any statement that I have said in error, as I want BITOG to be accurate and true.

The remarkable thing about my base-oil-quality index (BOQI) list is that it doesn't require any prior knowledge of the ingredients of the oil, such as MSDS data. It only uses the CCS and NOACK values for a given oil.

It's especially useful when comparing oils within the same viscosity grade. There is a strong correlation with the BOQI and base-oil API-group number: BOQ will increase as the API-group number increases as I, I+, II, II+, III, III+, GTL (III++++), and IV. It's correlated with how well the base oil is refined.
 
Just out of curiosity why would you leave out HTHS when grading base oils? There is a reason why they label that hths and do not label cSt or NOACK as such, because that is the single atsm that reveals the tendency of an oil to shear, which most oil do. If you are concerned with an ability of an oil to stay on the metal over an interval you can just look at the hths and forget the rest? Vii's can lower NOACK, but that formula would have a lower hths. Are "grading" base oils to be fuel efficient or are we grading base oils to have the oil stick to the metal surface under heat?
 
IMO any grading of base oils you need the third corner of that triangle, cSt, NOACK, and HTHS.

Or since the cSt determination has nothing to do with how an oil will operate long term, just use NOACK and HTHS. Wouldn't we want to test base oils as in what happens to them in real world applications over time, or just more of what the oil does in a virgin state?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Superbuick96
2023 tally of the "Post your latest oil change" thread
2 3 4
Replies
71
Views
4K
ATex7239
MolaKule
  • Locked
Updated List of MTF's (both GL-4 and GL-5)
2
Replies
35
Views
10K
Ruturaj
A
HPL oil choice for a 600hp V8 TT?
2 3 4
Replies
77
Views
5K
JohnnyO
B
  • Locked
when is fully synthetic is NOT a fully synthetic!
4 5 6
Replies
112
Views
11K
Astro14
N
My Quest For The Best Oil on the Planet
5 6 7
Replies
134
Views
23K
Heywood_6078
Back
Top