This is so embarrassing for Honda. Not only are they flailing haplessly and wthout a clue, but they're doing it in 2018, when most others have long sorted this issue out. And then to bet the whole farm on this 1.5T, having it installed in all their vehicles is just a nightmare for them. I wonder if their engineers are thinking to themselves "well shoot, this wasn't as easy as it looked"
What is Honda’s Plan For CR-V and Civic Oil Dilution?
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Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
This is so embarrassing for Honda. Not only are they flailing haplessly and wthout a clue, but they're doing it in 2018, when most others have long sorted this issue out. And then to bet the whole farm on this 1.5T, having it installed in all their vehicles is just a nightmare for them. I wonder if their engineers are thinking to themselves "well shoot, this wasn't as easy as it looked"
In comparison to other TGDI engines, the fuel dilution does seem to be a bit worse. So far, it does not appear to affect engine longevity but most of these vehicles are still low mileage. If I was in the market for a small SUV today, I would not hesitate to buy a CRV with the 1.5T; it is really a non-issue in my climate.
This is so embarrassing for Honda. Not only are they flailing haplessly and wthout a clue, but they're doing it in 2018, when most others have long sorted this issue out. And then to bet the whole farm on this 1.5T, having it installed in all their vehicles is just a nightmare for them. I wonder if their engineers are thinking to themselves "well shoot, this wasn't as easy as it looked"
In comparison to other TGDI engines, the fuel dilution does seem to be a bit worse. So far, it does not appear to affect engine longevity but most of these vehicles are still low mileage. If I was in the market for a small SUV today, I would not hesitate to buy a CRV with the 1.5T; it is really a non-issue in my climate.
Originally Posted by The Critic
A friend of mine owns a 2017 with 31K miles. She brings it to me for service 9-10k miles (she follows the OLM) and the oil level has never risen. However, I did post an UOA on this site where the fuel dilution tested >5%.
We are not receiving the service campaign in CA, at least not for now. However, the software is available countrywide thru the Honda J2534 program. Since I own a J2534 tool, I went ahead and performed the ECM and CVT module updates (along with the required post-programming relearns) myself. At the time of the updates, I also performed an oil-only replacement as specified by the bulletin.
It has been about 700 miles since the update was performed. The car was here yesterday and I was able to get some time with it. Here are some informal observations:
1) The engine oil has no obvious fuel smell and the oil level is exactly where I left it before. However, I have never seen the oil level rise on this particular CRV, even after a 9500 mile oil drain.
2) The Oil Life Monitor (OLM) is down to 90% after 700 moles. This vehicle usually comes in for service at about 9-9.5K with 10% remaining, so I think the OLM is dropping a little bit faster than before.
3) I did not pay attention to the temp gauge until people start complaining about the slow warm-up times, but I did two informal tests after the update to see how long it would take before the coolant temp gauge read normally:
A) ambient temp - 45F. 3 miles and 5 min of constant 45-50 mph cruising.
B) ambient temp - 39F. 1.5 mi and 9 min of stop and go driving with stop lights. Average speed was probably 10-15 mph.
Not sure how this compares to other CR-Vs that have not received the update, but the warm up time seems normal to me.
This may be one of the "good" ones, but 5% fuel dilution still seems like a lot. The real question is whether 5% dilution has real, negative consequences like reduced engine life, premature oil consumption, etc. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
A friend of mine owns a 2017 with 31K miles. She brings it to me for service 9-10k miles (she follows the OLM) and the oil level has never risen. However, I did post an UOA on this site where the fuel dilution tested >5%.
We are not receiving the service campaign in CA, at least not for now. However, the software is available countrywide thru the Honda J2534 program. Since I own a J2534 tool, I went ahead and performed the ECM and CVT module updates (along with the required post-programming relearns) myself. At the time of the updates, I also performed an oil-only replacement as specified by the bulletin.
It has been about 700 miles since the update was performed. The car was here yesterday and I was able to get some time with it. Here are some informal observations:
1) The engine oil has no obvious fuel smell and the oil level is exactly where I left it before. However, I have never seen the oil level rise on this particular CRV, even after a 9500 mile oil drain.
2) The Oil Life Monitor (OLM) is down to 90% after 700 moles. This vehicle usually comes in for service at about 9-9.5K with 10% remaining, so I think the OLM is dropping a little bit faster than before.
3) I did not pay attention to the temp gauge until people start complaining about the slow warm-up times, but I did two informal tests after the update to see how long it would take before the coolant temp gauge read normally:
A) ambient temp - 45F. 3 miles and 5 min of constant 45-50 mph cruising.
B) ambient temp - 39F. 1.5 mi and 9 min of stop and go driving with stop lights. Average speed was probably 10-15 mph.
Not sure how this compares to other CR-Vs that have not received the update, but the warm up time seems normal to me.
This may be one of the "good" ones, but 5% fuel dilution still seems like a lot. The real question is whether 5% dilution has real, negative consequences like reduced engine life, premature oil consumption, etc. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted by dblshock
From CART to F1 and INDY...you might find a couple turbo's in here...
HONDA MOTORSPORTS
Race cars don't have the short tripping low-speed issues that US-market street cars have
The world of direct injected, turbocharged, general purpose engines is different for Honda. I suspect insufficient testing, but don't know for sure. Ford did major testing with the 3.5 Ecoboost and even so, a number of issues were found by average owners that did not show up in testing. I have one of the early 3.5 Ecoboost F150's and it was some time before I experienced the water in the intercooler problem. I do however, have continuing issues with fuel dilution, necessitating an OCI of 5000 miles or less.
Originally Posted by dblshock
From CART to F1 and INDY...you might find a couple turbo's in here...
HONDA MOTORSPORTS
Race cars don't have the short tripping low-speed issues that US-market street cars have
The world of direct injected, turbocharged, general purpose engines is different for Honda. I suspect insufficient testing, but don't know for sure. Ford did major testing with the 3.5 Ecoboost and even so, a number of issues were found by average owners that did not show up in testing. I have one of the early 3.5 Ecoboost F150's and it was some time before I experienced the water in the intercooler problem. I do however, have continuing issues with fuel dilution, necessitating an OCI of 5000 miles or less.
A company with the resources that HONDA has has no excuse for this sloppy engineering. Obviously they didn't do a proper engineering job or enough real world testing or this problem would have never left the company. JMO. Ed
Is the fuel dilution even proven to be a proven long-term mechanical problem?
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
Originally Posted by dblshock
The Honda CEO was fired just prior to the Civic launch because of all the FIT troubles they had to deal with.
Design team also needs to be fired for creating such ugly vehicles the past 6-7 years.
New Accord and Civic are so ugly. Not surprised Accord sales have dropped with redesigned Accord.
The Honda CEO was fired just prior to the Civic launch because of all the FIT troubles they had to deal with.
Design team also needs to be fired for creating such ugly vehicles the past 6-7 years.
New Accord and Civic are so ugly. Not surprised Accord sales have dropped with redesigned Accord.
Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted by dblshock
From CART to F1 and INDY...you might find a couple turbo's in here...
HONDA MOTORSPORTS
Race cars don't have the short tripping low-speed issues that US-market street cars have
Zero need for turbos in Honda / Acura street vehicle s.
Originally Posted by dblshock
From CART to F1 and INDY...you might find a couple turbo's in here...
HONDA MOTORSPORTS
Race cars don't have the short tripping low-speed issues that US-market street cars have
Zero need for turbos in Honda / Acura street vehicle s.
Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
5w30 and premium will help a lot
Honda thought they could get away with 0w20 and regular in a turbo. They have very little experience with turbos,
That's silly. Honda engineers know plenty about turbos they just chose to deliver their power naturally aspirated most of the time over the last 30 years or so.
Beside their ROW turbo engines, the US also got their turbo motorcycles 35 years ago.
The thing is just because they didn't choose to put them on everything, you don't think they were looking at Toyota, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Nissan all these years and knew exactly how to do the same thing? It wasn't their formula.
5w30 and premium will help a lot
Honda thought they could get away with 0w20 and regular in a turbo. They have very little experience with turbos,
That's silly. Honda engineers know plenty about turbos they just chose to deliver their power naturally aspirated most of the time over the last 30 years or so.
Beside their ROW turbo engines, the US also got their turbo motorcycles 35 years ago.
The thing is just because they didn't choose to put them on everything, you don't think they were looking at Toyota, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Nissan all these years and knew exactly how to do the same thing? It wasn't their formula.
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Originally Posted by dblshock
The Honda CEO was fired just prior to the Civic launch because of all the FIT troubles they had to deal with.
Design team also needs to be fired for creating such ugly vehicles the past 6-7 years.
New Accord and Civic are so ugly. Not surprised Accord sales have dropped with redesigned Accord.
Beauty is subjective. Besides, sedan sales dropping is the big reason Accord sales have dropped.
Originally Posted by dblshock
The Honda CEO was fired just prior to the Civic launch because of all the FIT troubles they had to deal with.
Design team also needs to be fired for creating such ugly vehicles the past 6-7 years.
New Accord and Civic are so ugly. Not surprised Accord sales have dropped with redesigned Accord.
Beauty is subjective. Besides, sedan sales dropping is the big reason Accord sales have dropped.
Originally Posted by pitzel
Is the fuel dilution even proven to be a proven long-term mechanical problem?
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
when your starting with a W20 and you scrub it down to a W08 or W04 full of fuel then running that thru the TGDI 7-8k I'd expect a few premature problems eventually.
Is the fuel dilution even proven to be a proven long-term mechanical problem?
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
when your starting with a W20 and you scrub it down to a W08 or W04 full of fuel then running that thru the TGDI 7-8k I'd expect a few premature problems eventually.
Originally Posted by dblshock
Originally Posted by pitzel
Is the fuel dilution even proven to be a proven long-term mechanical problem?
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
when your starting with a W20 and you scrub it down to a W08 or W04 full of fuel then running that thru the TGDI 7-8k I'd expect a few premature problems eventually.
Have you actually seen any that have diluted that far, as in UOAs as examples?
Originally Posted by pitzel
Is the fuel dilution even proven to be a proven long-term mechanical problem?
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
when your starting with a W20 and you scrub it down to a W08 or W04 full of fuel then running that thru the TGDI 7-8k I'd expect a few premature problems eventually.
Have you actually seen any that have diluted that far, as in UOAs as examples?
Originally Posted by jayg
Originally Posted by dblshock
Originally Posted by pitzel
Is the fuel dilution even proven to be a proven long-term mechanical problem?
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
when your starting with a W20 and you scrub it down to a W08 or W04 full of fuel then running that thru the TGDI 7-8k I'd expect a few premature problems eventually.
Have you actually seen any that have diluted that far, as in UOAs as examples?
I think this is exaggeration to say the least.
Originally Posted by dblshock
Originally Posted by pitzel
Is the fuel dilution even proven to be a proven long-term mechanical problem?
Wouldn't it be more akin to running a grade or two less motor-oil wise? Which we know really isn't an issue in most cases in Honda engines. And may actually be beneficial in terms of cold start lubrication.
when your starting with a W20 and you scrub it down to a W08 or W04 full of fuel then running that thru the TGDI 7-8k I'd expect a few premature problems eventually.
Have you actually seen any that have diluted that far, as in UOAs as examples?
I think this is exaggeration to say the least.
Originally Posted by dblshock
When I measure by volume 15% fuel dilution in a month easy.
So you've sent it off for analysis and a reputable oil analyzer said the 20wt was effectively a 4wt because of fuel dilution? Or you're just eyeballing it and using BITOG math?
When I measure by volume 15% fuel dilution in a month easy.
So you've sent it off for analysis and a reputable oil analyzer said the 20wt was effectively a 4wt because of fuel dilution? Or you're just eyeballing it and using BITOG math?
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Zero need for turbos in Honda / Acura street vehicle s.
No need, but it's easier to meet absurd government fuel economy demands with a turbo engine. Most of the seemingly crazy engineering decisions of the last few years are driven not by need or engineers, but politicians.
Of course when you then find you have to run the engines at higher RPMs to warm them up faster to prevent fuel dilution destroying the engine, it kind of defeats the point. Except when the fuel economy test is in warm weather where you can program the engine to keep the old RPMs.
Zero need for turbos in Honda / Acura street vehicle s.
No need, but it's easier to meet absurd government fuel economy demands with a turbo engine. Most of the seemingly crazy engineering decisions of the last few years are driven not by need or engineers, but politicians.
Of course when you then find you have to run the engines at higher RPMs to warm them up faster to prevent fuel dilution destroying the engine, it kind of defeats the point. Except when the fuel economy test is in warm weather where you can program the engine to keep the old RPMs.
Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Zero need for turbos in Honda / Acura street vehicle s.
No need, but it's easier to meet absurd government fuel economy demands with a turbo engine. Most of the seemingly crazy engineering decisions of the last few years are driven not by need or engineers, but politicians.
Of course when you then find you have to run the engines at higher RPMs to warm them up faster to prevent fuel dilution destroying the engine, it kind of defeats the point. Except when the fuel economy test is in warm weather where you can program the engine to keep the old RPMs.
And diesel emissions are even more of a sham. Less visible pollutants then stored in a particulant filter burned off by high heat and more diesel injected using more fuel. Passes the tests though.
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Zero need for turbos in Honda / Acura street vehicle s.
No need, but it's easier to meet absurd government fuel economy demands with a turbo engine. Most of the seemingly crazy engineering decisions of the last few years are driven not by need or engineers, but politicians.
Of course when you then find you have to run the engines at higher RPMs to warm them up faster to prevent fuel dilution destroying the engine, it kind of defeats the point. Except when the fuel economy test is in warm weather where you can program the engine to keep the old RPMs.
And diesel emissions are even more of a sham. Less visible pollutants then stored in a particulant filter burned off by high heat and more diesel injected using more fuel. Passes the tests though.
Honda doesn't have turbo experience?!
What about F1?
...Oh, wait...
What about F1?
...Oh, wait...
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