hyd tractor fluid in automatic transmission

[RDY4WAR]

Just want to add to this, I help wrench on an Outlaw drag racing car. It has a 632ci (10.4L) Chevy big block and a powerglide.

Most races are only 1/8th mile. At those events, we use Red Line Lightweight Racing ATF. The rear gear is very short for those tracks and the lower viscosity allows the converter to flash higher and leave the starting line a little harder.

Two of the events are run on a 1/4 mile. For those races, we usually use John Deere Hy-Guard. This past year though, we experimented with Amsoil compressor oil SAE 40 with excellent results. Got #2 qualifier at both events. The converter didn't like the thinner ATF on a 1/4 mile. It would be too lose at the top end of the track and want to nose over, hurting MPH. The Hy-Guard, and more so with the compressor oil, tightened up the converter enough pick up mph through the 1/4 mile. We decided to try compressor oil after noticing it being used by others who were trapping 5+ mph better than us at the 1/4 mile. Sure enough, we had the same result.

These cars are making 1200+hp, spinning 9,500+ rpm, and a lot of them use hydraulic oil or compressor oil. You rarely hear of transmission failures and when they do occur, it's usually from tire shake or poor build quality.

 

[MolaKule]

If the torque converter seemed to perform better with a higher viscosity fluid, then why didn't you try the Redline Racing ATF which has a viscosity of 10 cSt and is 3 cSt higher than regular type "F," and about 1.0 cSt higher than the hydraulic fluids?

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/RACING_ATF_PROD_INFO.pdf

At least with this oil, you would have less clutch pack slippage and faster lockup.


Quote
anyone use this in the[ir] car of truck trans?


I would NOT advise using this as a substitute (for many reasons) for your daily driver's car or light truck or grocery getter's ATF, but use a fluid speced for or one that cover's your transmission's ATF type.


"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by Highline9
Utf fluid I think super tech brand. When converter locks you feel it.

Congratulations on your successful demonstrations/tests that a UTF/UHF/UTTO could replace an ATF and perform excellently in an automatic transmissions, manufactured not by one but two different OEM's/manufacturers.

A properly formulated UTF/UHF/UTTO of repute like Hy-Gard/Shell Donax TD 5W30 etc (being a multi-purpose fluid), would have appropriate additives package and appropriate friction modifiers for all adequate performance in 'claimed' functions such as :
a) a hydraulic fluid, in a hydraulic system and its circuits; AND
b) an oil immersed wet brake system oil, in wet brakes; AND
c) a clutch-packs transmission oil, including passenger car automatic transmissions (as ATF oils) and heavy equipment powershift transmission (as Transmission oils) etc as you had tested successfully.

In relation to ATF, this supertech may have 5W30 properties as similar to Hy-Gard or Shell Donax 5W30 and hence carrying higher KV @40*C/ KV100C cSt providing a boost for components protection.

Your auto transmissions in Hyundai and Jeep should be good to go.

Don't worry about your oil selection.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by zeng

A properly formulated UTF/UHF/UTTO of repute like Hy-Gard/Shell Donax TD 5W30 etc (being a multi-purpose fluid), would have appropriate additives package and appropriate friction modifiers for all adequate performance in 'claimed' functions such as :



No, a UTF/UHF/UTTO it does not have the appropriate friction modifiers for an AT fluid.

There are different friction modifier chemistries and classifications for each application.

So from your misinformation post, it would be ok to put an LSD friction modifier in an ATF?


Once again:

Quote
If the torque converter seemed to perform better with a higher viscosity fluid, then why didn't you try the Redline Racing ATF which has a viscosity of 10 cSt and is 3 cSt higher than regular type "F," and about 1.0 cSt higher than the hydraulic fluids?

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/RACING_ATF_PROD_INFO.pdf

At least with this oil, you would have less clutch pack slippage and faster lockup.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
If the torque converter seemed to perform better with a higher viscosity fluid, then why didn't you try the Redline Racing ATF which has a viscosity of 10 cSt and is 3 cSt higher than regular type "F," and about 1.0 cSt higher than the hydraulic fluids?

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/RACING_ATF_PROD_INFO.pdf

At least with this oil, you would have less clutch pack slippage and faster lockup.

"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1

We made the initial change over to Hy-Gard on a whim after failing to qualify in the first two rounds that weekend. The datalogs were showing the converter was too lose and the car was nosing over between the 1/8th and 1/4 mile. Another racer suggested the Hy-Gard would tighten it up. With just one qualifying round left, we found some locally, changed it out, and managed to qualify 6th of 16. Went to semi-finals that weekend. We repeated similar results the next 1/4 mile event. With it being much cheaper and seeming to be effective not just for us but for others as well, we saw no reason to switch to an expensive ATF for the 2 weekends a year. We just ran Hy-Gard and eventually tried compressor oil since there a supply of it sitting around.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Heck yeah !

 

[RDY4WAR]

I can assure you there was no scientific reasoning for any of it. It was merely a matter of "we're getting beat by people doing this so we'd be idiots not to try it ourselves."

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR


...We made the initial change over to Hy-Gard on a whim after failing to qualify in the first two rounds that weekend. The datalogs were showing the converter was too lose and the car was nosing over between the 1/8th and 1/4 mile. Another racer suggested the Hy-Gard would tighten it up. With just one qualifying round left, we found some locally, changed it out, and managed to qualify 6th of 16. Went to semi-finals that weekend. We repeated similar results the next 1/4 mile event. With it being much cheaper and seeming to be effective not just for us but for others as well, we saw no reason to switch to an expensive ATF for the 2 weekends a year. We just ran Hy-Gard and eventually tried compressor oil since there a supply of it sitting around.

Understood. When at the track you use what you got or what you can get from other friendly racers. I help my BIL at the 1/4 mile track as part of his pit crew. He has an S-10 truck with a 454 and a TH350 combo.

I supply custom ATF lubricants to dirt track and 1/4 mile racers and it seems for racers using AT's, the torque converters have better "stall" and power transfer characteristics when using a slightly higher viscosity type "F" fluid with a viscosity of around 10cSt@100C.

Now some performance differences are due to the design of the Torque Converter, internal gear ratios, and valve/fluid programming.

The only drawback for dirt track racers is higher fluid temperatures so they had to use larger oil coolers, because of the higher viscosity.

My only caution here is that someone NOT racing may think he can use Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluid, or whatever in his daily driver car or light truck and not have any maintenance problems down the road.

Each fluid type and fluid application has a different additive package and contains different Friction Modifier and AW chemistry for the specific materials used in those transmissions.

The friction modifiers in engine oils are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in ATF's. The friction modifiers in ATF's are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in LSD gear oil. The friction modifiers found in ATF's are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluid. The friction modifiers found in Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluids are NOT the same friction modifiers found in ATF, etc. etc.

 

[DoubleWasp]

This might be hilarious to try in my Ram sometime. A built transmission is waiting to go in at any time, so I'd have nothing to lose but my dignity. LOL

 

[another Todd]

No dignity would be lost, it would be done in the name of science.

 

[DoubleWasp]

True. Come to think of it, I've done worse. Hard to establish a qualifier here. If it defecates the bed, do I chalk it up to being the fluid, or just being a 68RFE behind a Cummins?

They can do a long time before surrendering, but in factory build, these transmissions are on borrowed time from the day they are bolted to the Cummins plate.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by zeng

A properly formulated UTF/UHF/UTTO of repute like Hy-Gard/Shell Donax TD 5W30 etc (being a multi-purpose fluid), would have appropriate additives package and appropriate friction modifiers for all adequate performance in 'claimed' functions such as :



No, a UTF/UHF/UTTO it does not have the appropriate friction modifiers for an AT fluid.

There are different friction modifier chemistries and classifications for each application.

So from your misinformation post, it would be ok to put an LSD friction modifier in an ATF?

You seem to habitually put words into other posters' mouths,often times in mine ........ misleadingly with a view to confuse other readers .......
deviating from factual discussions in hand.
I humbly suggest you abstaining from this 'old' tricks, just to impress and seemingly 'win' an argument!

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by MolaKule
If the torque converter seemed to perform better with a higher viscosity fluid, then why didn't you try the Redline Racing ATF which has a viscosity of 10 cSt and is 3 cSt higher than regular type "F," and about 1.0 cSt higher than the hydraulic fluids?

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/RACING_ATF_PROD_INFO.pdf

At least with this oil, you would have less clutch pack slippage and faster lockup.

"He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod." - Compressions 9:1

We made the initial change over to Hy-Gard on a whim after failing to qualify in the first two rounds that weekend. The datalogs were showing the converter was too lose and the car was nosing over between the 1/8th and 1/4 mile. Another racer suggested the Hy-Gard would tighten it up. With just one qualifying round left, we found some locally, changed it out, and managed to qualify 6th of 16. Went to semi-finals that weekend. We repeated similar results the next 1/4 mile event. With it being much cheaper and seeming to be effective not just for us but for others as well, we saw no reason to switch to an expensive ATF for the 2 weekends a year. We just ran Hy-Gard and eventually tried compressor oil since there a supply of it sitting around.
Thanks for sharing your 'success' experience.
Do I doubt it ? No!

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by MolaKule


Now some performance differences are due to the design of the Torque Converter, internal gear ratios, and valve/fluid programming.

The only drawback for dirt track racers is higher fluid temperatures so they had to use larger oil coolers, because of the higher viscosity.

My only caution here is that someone NOT racing may think he can use Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluid, or whatever in his daily driver car or light truck and not have any maintenance problems down the road.

Each fluid type and fluid application has a different additive package and contains different Friction Modifier and AW chemistry for the specific materials used in those transmissions.

The friction modifiers in engine oils are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in ATF's. The friction modifiers in ATF's are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in LSD gear oil. The friction modifiers found in ATF's are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluid. The friction modifiers found in Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluids are NOT the same friction modifiers found in ATF, etc. etc.
This 'grand' arguments of yours, and your numerous other 2013 posts in this thread, simply do not FIT into OP's real life encounters and experience.
Does OP mislead us ? I don't think so.
Hence your 'strong' arguments couldn't be valid , in OP's context.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by MolaKule


Now some performance differences are due to the design of the Torque Converter, internal gear ratios, and valve/fluid programming.

The only drawback for dirt track racers is higher fluid temperatures so they had to use larger oil coolers, because of the higher viscosity.

My only caution here is that someone NOT racing may think he can use Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluid, or whatever in his daily driver car or light truck and not have any maintenance problems down the road.

Each fluid type and fluid application has a different additive package and contains different Friction Modifier and AW chemistry for the specific materials used in those transmissions.

The friction modifiers in engine oils are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in ATF's. The friction modifiers in ATF's are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in LSD gear oil. The friction modifiers found in ATF's are NOT the same friction modifiers as found in Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluid. The friction modifiers found in Hy-Gard or UTTO fluid or a Trans-Hydraulic fluids are NOT the same friction modifiers found in ATF, etc. etc.
This 'grand' arguments of yours, and your numerous other 2013 posts in this thread, simply do not FIT into OP's real life encounters and experience.
Does OP mislead us ? I don't think so.
Hence your 'strong' arguments couldn't be valid , in OP's context.



Dream on ZENG. LOL

 

[n5ifi]

I saw this old thread and had to comment.
If you are running a racing powerglide and transbrake, Hygard has proven to be pretty [censored] good stuff. Never had a problem with it in this environment.
Last Trans we put it in was in 2015 and its still working fine.
We usually add a quart or two of Type F so that we can see the level.
TY6354

Haven't used this one but it's supposed to be fine too.
TY22062

 

[nascarnation]

Most Allison transmissions are validated to run on 15W40, Delvac 1300 being a typical example.
A lot of fleets (like the US army) prefer a common fluid with the engine for logistics reasons.

 

[Linctex]

I have a 203,000 mile E4OD in a pretty "WELL-USED" 1997 Ford F350 - I'm going to drain the nasty black fluid and try the Hy-Tran/Hy-Gard type fluid.

I generally prefer Case-International Harvester "Hy-Tran" over Deere Hy-Gard, (for sentimental reasons) but the Deere dealer is WAAAY closer to where I drive.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by Linctex
I have a 203,000 mile E4OD in a pretty "WELL-USED" 1997 Ford F350 - I'm going to drain the nasty black fluid and try the Hy-Tran/Hy-Gard type fluid.

I generally prefer Case-International Harvester "Hy-Tran" over Deere Hy-Gard, (for sentimental reasons) but the Deere dealer is WAAAY closer to where I drive.

UHF/UTTO meeting Case IH/John Deere specs generally has more than adequate the required Ford performance levels .

Components longevity/protection would be 'better' served/covered with fluids having KV@40C closer to 68 cSt than 46 .

 

[Highline9]

I'm like 7 years in on the tractor fluid in my Elantra never has missed a best still performing great.