Unusual 75W-90 Cold Specs

[badtlc]

Can anyone give me any feedback on the specs for this 75W-90? It is supposed to be full synthetic but these numbers seem off a bit to me:

Code
Typical Properties

Brookfield Viscosity at -40°C, cP ASTM D2983 135,000

Color ASTM D1500 1

Flash Point °C ASTM D92 224

Flash Point °F ASTM D92 435

Gravity, °API ASTM D287 31.24

Pour Point °C (°F) ASTM D5950 -51°C (-60°F)

Specific Gravity @ 60°F (15.6°C) ASTM D4052 0.8695

Viscosity @ 100°C cSt ASTM D445 16.15

Viscosity @ 40°C cSt ASTM D445 109.3

Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 159


This is a very affordable 75W-90 that I am posting but the cold flow data seems markedly better than high quality synthetics like Mobil 1 & Amsoil 75W-90. The pour point is WAY better.

Is this a cheap 75W-90 with a lot of pour point suppressants in it or a lot of VIIs? I really don't think this product would be using high quality PAO or esters.

Does anyone have any insight on this? I'd like to use it if it isn't chalked full of fillers but the price isn't lining up with the specs.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Well thin oil is so great why aren't they running 0W-20?

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Well thin oil is so great why aren't they running 0W-20?


0W-20 in what, a differential?

 

[FowVay]

Does this product carry both API GL-5 AND SAE J2360? Those are two specifications that you should demand for your axle oils.

 

[badtlc]

Yes, according to this list:

AGMA 9005-E02, 250.03, 250.04, 251.02, No. 4 Meets Requirements
AIST/US Steel 224 Meets Requirements
API GL-5 Meets Requirements
ArvinMeritor (Rockwell International) 076-E Meets Requirements
Mack GO-J, GO-H, GO-G Meets Requirements
MT-1 Meets Requirements
SAE J2360, MIL-2105E/F Meets Requirements
GM 9986115 Suitable for Use
Limited Slip Suitable for Use

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by badtlc
Can anyone give me any feedback on the specs for this 75W-90? It is supposed to be full synthetic but these numbers seem off a bit to me:

Code
Typical Properties

Brookfield Viscosity at -40°C, cP ASTM D2983 135,000

Color ASTM D1500 1

Flash Point °C ASTM D92 224

Flash Point °F ASTM D92 435

Gravity, °API ASTM D287 31.24

Pour Point °C (°F) ASTM D5950 -51°C (-60°F)

Specific Gravity @ 60°F (15.6°C) ASTM D4052 0.8695

Viscosity @ 100°C cSt ASTM D445 16.15

Viscosity @ 40°C cSt ASTM D445 109.3

Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 159


This is a very affordable 75W-90 that I am posting but the cold flow data seems markedly better than high quality synthetics like Mobil 1 & Amsoil 75W-90. The pour point is WAY better.

Is this a cheap 75W-90 with a lot of pour point suppressants in it or a lot of VIIs? I really don't think this product would be using high quality PAO or esters.

Does anyone have any insight on this? I'd like to use it if it isn't chalked full of fillers but the price isn't lining up with the specs.



What the Brand and Blender?

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by MolaKule



What the Brand and Blender?


I was trying to avoid posting that to avoid assumptions based on names but the brand is Mag1 and I think the blender is Warren. Same makers as supertech.

I did get them to tell me that the product is Group III and contains no PAO. I assume this means there is a lot of suppressants and VIIs to get these numbers, correct?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by badtlc


...I did get them to tell me that the product is Group III and contains no PAO. I assume this means there is a lot of suppressants and VIIs to get these numbers, correct?


Yes, Mag1 is a product by WD or Warren Distribution, a quality blender of lubricants.

Most full synthetic lubricants in NA are a Mixture of various viscosities of various base oil types from Group III to Group V.

Most likely what the customer tech was conveying to you was that the Majority of base oils are Group III. Remember these techs are not chemists/formulators and are reading the internal party line "scripts" they are given.

Even a small percentage of Group IV PAO and Group IV ester in group III base oils, with a good performance improvement additive package, can greatly improve performance without loads of PPD's or VII's.

So I would not make the assumption the product is "loaded" with PPD's or VII's.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by MolaKule

Yes, Mag1 is a product by WD or Warren Distribution, a quality blender of lubricants.

Most full synthetic lubricants in NA are a Mixture of various viscosities of various base oil types from Group III to Group V.

Most likely what the customer tech was conveying to you was that the Majority of base oils are Group III. Remember these techs are not chemists/formulators and are reading the internal party line "scripts" they are given.

Even a small percentage of Group IV PAO and Group IV ester in group III base oils, with a good performance improvement additive package, can greatly improve performance without loads of PPD's or VII's.

So I would not make the assumption the product is "loaded" with PPD's or VII's.


It was actually one of their senior chemists that contacted me, not a customer service rep or tech. It was really nice of them. I know they used to monitor this board for their products being discussed. Not sure they still do.

Maybe I'll give this stuff a go if you think it is worth giving them the benefit of the doubt but he was very clear about GrpIII with no PAO.

 

[badtlc]

They also confirmed no esters. Only GrpIII is present.

 

[MolaKule]

Well, I don't know where my reply post went but I guess I'll have to retype, if I can remember what I said.

Most chemists/formulators are usually too busy developing new formulations, reading test reports on new formulas, or dealing with problems from major customers.

And any chemist/formulator who has divulged info such as that has not had a job long after that.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
Well, I don't know where my reply post went but I guess I'll have to retype, if I can remember what I said.

Most chemists/formulators are usually too busy developing new formulations, reading test reports on new formulas, or dealing with problems from major customers.

And any chemist/formulator who has divulged info such as that has not had a job long after that.



OK. Sounds like I should avoid it, then. Thanks for the feedback. The search continues.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by badtlc


OK. Sounds like I should avoid it, then. Thanks for the feedback. The search continues.


In answer to your original question, I don't think the specs are unusual at all.

I cannot think of any reason to avoid WD's Mag1 products. Their price/performance points seem acceptable.

How many people have suffered problems or failures using SuperTech gear lubes?

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by MolaKule

In answer to your original question, I don't think the specs are unusual at all.

I cannot think of any reason to avoid WD's Mag1 products. Their price/performance points seem acceptable.

How many people have suffered problems or failures using SuperTech gear lubes?



I don't know of any but I also cant find any other 75W-90 GL-5 products with cold weather properties like that. The only thing better is Motul 300. Just seems odd to see a GrpIII be so much better cold flow/viscosity wise vs companies using PAOs and esters like Redline, Mobil1, Amsoil, etc.

For under $8/qt, it just sounded like Mag1 is defying logic. I should probably be more concerned about longevity than cold flow properties, anyway, since we only see below 0F maybe 5 days a year.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by badtlc
Originally Posted by MolaKule

In answer to your original question, I don't think the specs are unusual at all.

I cannot think of any reason to avoid WD's Mag1 products. Their price/performance points seem acceptable.

How many people have suffered problems or failures using SuperTech gear lubes?



I don't know of any but I also cant find any other 75W-90 GL-5 products with cold weather properties like that. The only thing better is Motul 300. Just seems odd to see a GrpIII be so much better cold flow/viscosity wise vs companies using PAOs and esters like Redline, Mobil1, Amsoil, etc.

For under $8/qt, it just sounded like Mag1 is defying logic. I should probably be more concerned about longevity than cold flow properties, anyway, since we only see below 0F maybe 5 days a year.


Defying whose logic?

Read this thread and you will see how this could be done:

Gear Lubricant Formulations

 

[Sam_Julier]

Mola, The article referenced above was written in 2003. Has this been updated?

As always, I greatly appreciate your contribution to this site.

Sam

 

[MolaKule]

The article regarding Gear Lube formulations has not been updated but is on the list of articles to be Updated.

Not much has changed except the additive packages and it has been mainly in the area of the EP additive chemisry.

My point to the op was that are a number of ways of formulating gear lubes without making the assumption that a gear lube was or had to be loaded with PPD's and VII's to get a decent specification.

Here is the latest Product Data Sheet on the Mag1 75W90 from the web:

https://mag1.com/products/industria...g-1-75w-90-gl-5-full-synthetic-gear-oil/

 

[badtlc]

It seems like one fairly noticeable change from 2003 is the amount/quality of GrpIII synthetics. Your write up didn't really touch on their properties vs PAO and esters. Anything coming on that?

 

[MolaKule]

Since 2003 more Group III has been used in many applications, including gear oils.

The main reason is performance of Group III's are very close to those of PAO's, is less expensive, and right now there is large supply of Group III at reasonable bulk prices.

The problem with giving percentages of each base oil type is too many people think because PAO or esters are used the performance might be better than those of mineral oil blends and that is not always the case, since majority conventional oil blends contain more than just Group II or III base oils to enhance performance.

The main point of the 2003 article's were to clarify GL-X ratings, dispel some gear oil myths, and to show how some example gear oils were formulated. Those articles were not meant to explain in detail base oil properties.

One can find that information on the Home Page here:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

 

[badtlc]

So when using Grp III, do you dose/blend the additives like you would conventional, PAO or something else? PAO viscosity characteristics with conventional additive compatibility sounds like a nice evolution.