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California Residents #4944934
12/06/18 09:47 AM
12/06/18 09:47 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,903
ROCHESTER, NY
Char Baby Online content OP
Char Baby  Online Content OP

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,903
ROCHESTER, NY
I'd like to send my deepest sympathy to all of those in CA who have lost their homes and worst, their loved ones in these wildfires. My thoughts & prayers go out too all Californians and others who may be affected by these fires.

I have a question for anyone in CA who can answer a question for me. Story first...

My buddy was telling me that he saw on FOX NEWS that there is a law in CA that prohibits homeowners from removing "downed trees & debris"? Can anyone elaborate on this?

My buddy usually get the story wrong or only relays part of the story often inaccurately.
I can see if by law in CA, homeowners are prohibited from removing(living) trees, shrub & grass or anything else holding the soil together in order to prevent MUDSLIDES.

What say you?

Thanks,
CB


Last edited by Char Baby; 12/06/18 09:49 AM.

"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
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Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4944954
12/06/18 10:11 AM
12/06/18 10:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,224
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Chris142 Online content
Chris142  Online Content

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,224
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Quite the opposite. If you have a downed tree or dead tree you are required to remove it. The wildfires are fueled by unmamaged forests. The tree huggers wont let any logging or other ways of thinning the forests. So instead of say 20 healthy trees per acre we have 300 unhealthy and dead trees per acre.


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Re: California Residents [Re: Chris142] #4944958
12/06/18 10:16 AM
12/06/18 10:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,731
San Rafael, CA
dogememe Online content
dogememe  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,731
San Rafael, CA
Originally Posted by Chris142
Quite the opposite. If you have a downed tree or dead tree you are required to remove it. The wildfires are fueled by unmamaged forests. The tree huggers wont let any logging or other ways of thinning the forests. So instead of say 20 healthy trees per acre we have 300 unhealthy and dead trees per acre.

This.


2010 Ford Escape 2.5 ~94K Miles: Royal Purple 5W-30
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Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4944964
12/06/18 10:27 AM
12/06/18 10:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
rshaw125 Offline
rshaw125  Offline

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
The fires 'manage' the forests. Natures way of keeping things in balance. The problem is people living in fire prone areas.


2012 Porsche Carrera S
2016 Ford Edge 2.0
2002 Taurus Vulcan SOLD
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Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4944973
12/06/18 10:33 AM
12/06/18 10:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,149
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,149
Kalifornia Kollective
Depends on the setting, county, and the species. Some trees require a permit. I usually just snap some photo's of the damaged/sick/dead tree and then saw away. You can always come up with a reasonable justification ... Trees in a green~space or a reserve take a lot more work to deal with. If your home is in a special district with a known endangered species with an arboreal habitat, you have your work cut out for you ...

Hazard trees are ones with some disease like canker, or heart rot, etc. - with a demonstrable target that could injure or kill humans. As long as you can show that was/is the case, they can come down.

Eco types love "bug logs" laying on the forest floor. They think it aids in forest health. In some cases I agree, but most no ... It depends on their surroundings. If a thinly soiled area with sparse veg - yah they are needed. With plenty of duff and thick veg - no, they need to go. Use good judgement.

It's about managing the environment, not neglecting it ... The most important issue is fuel loading on slopes and prevailing wind direction. Do not load fuel below your house or just under a ridge-line where it can spew embers for miles in a high wind.

Pruning lower branches is important and often overlooked. Eco types hate "pop-sickle" trees, but fuel ladder management is paramount.

Benign neglect is not management frown

Last edited by BrocLuno; 12/06/18 10:41 AM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4945023
12/06/18 11:39 AM
12/06/18 11:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 315
Ada county Idaho
MRtv Offline
MRtv  Offline

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 315
Ada county Idaho
While visiting in California last week I was listening to a talk show being aired on San Francisco KGO. The host was saying she blamed PG&E for bad manitainance around the power line towers. A caller called in and said that wasn't entirely correct. The caller knew of many property owners who when wanting to maintain under the power lines told PG&E they were not welcome onto the property to do the work. As a result a lot of debris had grown up under the lines contributing to the fires.

I used to live in California. I was employed in the lumber industry by a mill that has been put out of business by the tree huggers. That group has made an environmental mess of California with the laws they have forced to be put into place. People lives have been devastated by these laws and regulations. There has been and will be a lot of denial about that but having seen them in action and losing my job over their demands I am not buying into their propaganda.


2014 Nissan Versa Note 1.6 liter engine. 1997 Ford F150 4x4 4.6 liter engine.
Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4945025
12/06/18 11:39 AM
12/06/18 11:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,363
California
Vuflanovsky Offline
Vuflanovsky  Offline

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,363
California
There are certain areas of California that have "defensible space" laws whereby you have to keep weeds, brush, dead trees, etc. at a perimeter in relation to your property. OP, I would think that anything involving keeping vegetation to prevent mudslides would be on a case by case or after-the-fact basis and not an environmental protection / endangered species type of argument.

I was lucky that my house barely survived the 1991 Oakland Firestorm but I can tell you that the majority of these fires don't relate to "mismanaged forests" or "global warming" specifically. They relate to an idiot ( in the case of the Camp Fire likely PG&E ) and co-factors that make the situation almost inevitable. In the case of the Oakland Firestorm it was a mismanaged smoldering fire at a construction site combined with heavy Santa Ana winds. Today, I'm sure it would be attributed to mismanagement or global warming...or why the Eucalyptus trees weren't removed 50 years ago, etc.

Hundreds of thousands of trees in forested areas of California have died in just the past few years due to drought conditions. I'm not sure that a 40 foot fire break through "management" of this forest area is going to help things if there are 40,000 trees ready to go up all around it. Most of these fires aren't typical forest fires that are caused by lightening, etc. they're what are called wildland-urban interface fires. Oakland was one, Camp was one, Mendocino was one, Malibu was one. The Feds manage almost 60 percent of CA forests with most of the rest privately owned or commercially owned by timber companies. California government and local entities oversee about 3% of these lands.

If Paradise and Butte Co. spent several million dollars 10 years ago to remove the undergrowth and weeds that typically provide fuel for these fires in these "wildland-urban" perimeter areas ( they did ), you have to ask yourself what's "mismanagement" and what are conditional situations that "managing" isn't likely to create a different outcome based on the above. Unfortunately, that requires brain synapse firing and not pandering politichimp whores who'll attribute it to whatever they want.

Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4945034
12/06/18 11:51 AM
12/06/18 11:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
rshaw125 Offline
rshaw125  Offline

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,372
Raleigh ,NC CSA
Mother nature is getting rid of the undergrowth as California is returning to it's normal drier climate. These fires are part of the natural cycle. The only unnatural part is all of the subdivisions built in fire prone areas.


2012 Porsche Carrera S
2016 Ford Edge 2.0
2002 Taurus Vulcan SOLD
2006 Explorer SOLD
Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4945035
12/06/18 11:52 AM
12/06/18 11:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,825
California
nthach Offline
nthach  Offline

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,825
California
Originally Posted by Char Baby


My buddy was telling me that he saw on FOX NEWS that there is a law in CA that prohibits homeowners from removing "downed trees & debris"? Can anyone elaborate on this?




In the Oakland/Berkeley hills and most parts of the Bay Area, you are encouraged to clear all brush and dead trees from around property - it's a fine if you don't in certain parts.

Re: California Residents [Re: Vuflanovsky] #4945040
12/06/18 12:00 PM
12/06/18 12:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,825
California
nthach Offline
nthach  Offline

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,825
California
Originally Posted by Vuflanovsky


I was lucky that my house barely survived the 1991 Oakland Firestorm but I can tell you that the majority of these fires don't relate to "mismanaged forests" or "global warming" specifically. They relate to an idiot ( in the case of the Camp Fire likely PG&E ) and co-factors that make the situation almost inevitable. In the case of the Oakland Firestorm it was a mismanaged smoldering fire at a construction site combined with heavy Santa Ana winds. Today, I'm sure it would be attributed to mismanagement or global warming...or why the Eucalyptus trees weren't removed 50 years ago, etc.


If Paradise and Butte Co. spent several million dollars 10 years ago to remove the undergrowth and weeds that typically provide fuel for these fires in these "wildland-urban" perimeter areas ( they did ), you have to ask yourself what's "mismanagement" and what are conditional situations that "managing" isn't likely to create a different outcome based on the above. Unfortunately, that requires brain synapse firing and not pandering politichimp whores who'll attribute it to whatever they want.


There are so many people opposed to thinning out the Oakland/Berkeley Hills for fear of OMG toxic chemicals(which are necessary, as much I think we shouldn't be indiscriminately spraying Roundup and other herbicides, chemical control can be safer for workers than mechanical means) and animals but all that eucalyptus up there(I ride up in the hills quite a bit) that was brought in originally to serve as a buffer for the Hercules Powder Plant in Hercules are an invasive species and are fodder for fires. Luckily the voters spoke with passing measure FF to let the East Bay Regional Parks to do their job of vegetation management.

And it's not just mismanagement of vegetation - we're building out into places that aren't meant to support homes. Sprawl is one thing - infrastructure to provide a defense against fires is important. As much as cities are polluted, crowded and have their problems with politics and the homeless/drug addicts, they get one thing right - infrastructure.

Re: California Residents [Re: rshaw125] #4945165
12/06/18 03:13 PM
12/06/18 03:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,756
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,756
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by rshaw125
The fires 'manage' the forests. Natures way of keeping things in balance. The problem is people living in fire prone areas.


^^ this ^ is essentially, the meat and potatoes of this matter.


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Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4945200
12/06/18 03:53 PM
12/06/18 03:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,233
The Midwest
skyactiv Offline
skyactiv  Offline

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,233
The Midwest
All I wanna know is how much will PG&E customers pay for kilowatt after they lose the upcoming trillion dollar lawsuit?


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Wanted: 2019 Ford Ranger
Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4945211
12/06/18 04:07 PM
12/06/18 04:07 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 179
California
Dave1027 Offline
Dave1027  Offline

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 179
California
I remember visiting Paradise back in the early '90s. They did not have those subdivisions back then. Not sure when they built all those houses so close together. There is no defensible space. Once one house catches on fire, it's only a matter of time till the others next to it catch too.


Last edited by JHZR2; 12/06/18 07:54 PM. Reason: Political comment
Re: California Residents [Re: skyactiv] #4945212
12/06/18 04:07 PM
12/06/18 04:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,997
Central Maryland
HangFire Offline
HangFire  Offline

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,997
Central Maryland
Originally Posted by skyactiv
All I wanna know is how much will PG&E customers pay for kilowatt after they lose the upcoming trillion dollar lawsuit?

In theory they can sell stock and lower dividends to cover the difference. But you all know how that will work out.


Various musings: http://hangfire.net
Re: California Residents [Re: Char Baby] #4945216
12/06/18 04:13 PM
12/06/18 04:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 931
missouri
ragtoplvr Offline
ragtoplvr  Offline

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 931
missouri
I have a friend that works on the power line right of way maintenance, and there are a few places where they have to have the sheriff go with them. Many of those folks are off the grid, and do not give a care about anyone else. Often they have an alternative crop and do not want caught.

Rod

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