AR Pistols - accuracy and utility

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted by 92saturnsl2
Originally Posted by bubbatime
Originally Posted by Pike51
My choice for a home defense weapon is the Taurus Judge and Mossberg 590 Shockwave.


Two terrible, borderline useless, guns.

Buy something else.


Too many people have dreams of some huge firefight occurring in the home where you'll need more than a handful of rounds to take care of business- probably not going to happen! This isn't call of duty! Could some situation occur where you'll need 20+ rounds, sure, but the world could blow up tomorrow too, and all the rounds in the world ain't gonna help you!

If you can't defend your home with six shotgun blasts, you have bigger problems than how many rounds you can stuff in your gun.

My choice would be the Mossberg every time.


I have no problem with using a shotgun for home defense. I do have a problem with using a pistol grip "firearm" for home defense. They suck. I've seen at least 10 people completely miss the target at 5 yards firing these things. I've seen one guy fire a full load of buckshot, 5 or 6 rounds, and miss the target completely. Not one single pellet on paper. Not one.

Leave the shockwaves at the gun counter, and get a real shotgun, with a real stock, that you can aim, and have 3 points of contact with.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by bubbatime

I have no problem with using a shotgun for home defense. I do have a problem with using a pistol grip "firearm" for home defense. They suck. I've seen at least 10 people completely miss the target at 5 yards firing these things. I've seen one guy fire a full load of buckshot, 5 or 6 rounds, and miss the target completely. Not one single pellet on paper. Not one.

Leave the shockwaves at the gun counter, and get a real shotgun, with a real stock, that you can aim, and have 3 points of contact with.


Ive never been a fan of pistol grip shotguns, and while the shockwave type firearm is kind of interesting, it doesn't seem like a design that will practically be good to shoot, at least in 12ga. I think Remington has a variant with a brace that's possibly better.

It's not clear to me that a very short barrel .223 is all that great, mag capacity or not. Having shot .300blk, it's a great round, no sound but the firing pin. Ive shot at night and not noted a significant flash when suppressed, but don't know enough about the topic. Seems the light and sound is reason enough to consider this for dark, nighttime conditions, if it can be secured and accesssed easily.

 

[AZjeff]

Last I looked 300 blk ammo was significantly more than .223/5.56, is it still or is the price coming down? Makes a difference if you plan to shoot it much.

 

[SuperDave456]

I'm currently building a 7" 5.56 Wylde barreled pistol as a range toy and to see if I really like the idea.
Might build a shorter .300 blackout if I like it.
If you can work on a car you can build a AR-15, but be careful as it's addictive.

I'm not going to poo poo on the Judge, (which has terrible ballistics with any ammo due to it being a inbred mutt of "not a 18" barreled shotgun, not a true .45 colt cylinder" and having huge blow by prior to the barrel-cylinder gap) but if you like the idea of tossing a .45 cal projectile around 500-700 FPS, be my guest.
They've sold like hotcakes for over a decade, and i'm all about firearm sales.
Shockwaves are cool, if you want something to mess with the ATF, as a range toy its fun, but with 00 buck most folks cant manhandle them or hit what they need to.
00 buck from a stocked 18" barrel is no joke, and it can hurt you out of a shockwave, many folks just don't have the grip strength.

As far as terminal ballistics of a 5.56/.223 from a 7" barrel, it's better than a 6" barreled .357 magnum.
It's a rifle caliber pistol, and as such it has more energy than a pistol.
There's several videos out there all showing that the cheapest .223 wolf FMJ ammo from the 7" pistol compared to your premium .357 or 9mm+p ammo, the rifle caliber wins. Sure it's a lot less energetic than when its fired from a 16" barrel, but it still beats the pants off a .357
Would you be better off with the .357 that you've practiced with for 30 years? Probably so.

As far as blast, lighting your eyebrows on fire, and using it indoors... yeah, go with a suppressed .300 blackout, but for a range toy cheap .223 or 7.62x39 can be hard to beat

If one is dedicated and wants a full time suppressed rig there are blackout barrels down to 4 or 5 inches, you have to play with the buffers but they can be made to be reliable.
Very short suppressed rigs that are very quiet.

If I was going to go for a home defence build I'd go with .223 or a 5.56 barrel and build from there
If I was hunting I'd either build a 7.62x39 build or a .300 blackout build.
Suppressed, you pretty much have to go .300 blackout because it's just so darn flexible with both Subsonic and Supersonic ammo.

 

[stockrex]

Good stuff guys,

300 blk - I really don't know much about this caliber and I want to avoid another caliber if I can avoid it, what can 300 blk be use for other than home defense? hunting ?

frangible - wait, I thought frangible ammo was the shizzle for close quarter, why no love for frangible?

shot gun - I shoot trap (and sometimes very rarely skeet). I shoot a gas gun and yes, I need something I can shoulder somewhat. A pistal grip shotgun would be very hard to control, dunno, maybe I need to borrow one and try it out.

round count - I carry a glock 42 and 7 rounds makes me bit nervous if we have a zombie apocalypse. Or idiots like these come over. see video,


so the round capacity is important.

Sig ar pistolera - wow, I mean dang, that is one nice weapon. the price tag nearly gave me a coronary, add the cost of a can and stamp, I can probably hire private security, lol. I was budgeting like $400 for ar pistol and $1k for can. Now that I know that Sig piston driven gun exists, I am going to have to rethink selling blood again (joke)

Sound and enclosed spaces - it does not matter what you shoot, in an enclosed space it will disorient you. My local PD have cans for this very reason.

My main concern is overall length with the can,
Length of lower + Upper + 7 inch for Can = ??
Any guess was to what overall length I can expect?

 

[CT8]

Asian ? What does that have to do with anything? She was awesome!!! I am sure we could find faults. A life lesson .If there are intruders send the wife out to get the bad guys.

 

[CT8]

Buy an Aug or Tavor bull pup if length is a concern. The Pistol in the video seemed to do a fine job.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted by CT8
Asian ? What does that have to do with anything? She was awesome!!! I am sure we could find faults. A life lesson .If there are intruders send the wife out to get the bad guys.



Where did stockrex say anything about the woman being asian?

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by The_Eric
Where did stockrex say anything about the woman being asian?


The title of the video?

Back more on topic, yeah, I'd look at a bullpup rifle over an AR-15 pistol, but they're generally much more expensive. The 10" 7.62x39 AR-15 SBR I've fired was good fun and would probably make a decent home defence rifle, but we can actually buy those up here without lots of legal hassles (of course, we can't use them to shoot burglars).

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by The_Eric
Where did stockrex say anything about the woman being asian?


The title of the video?

Back more on topic, yeah, I'd look at a bullpup rifle over an AR-15 pistol, but they're generally much more expensive. The 10" 7.62x39 AR-15 SBR I've fired was good fun and would probably make a decent home defence rifle, but we can actually buy those up here without lots of legal hassles (of course, we can't use them to shoot burglars).



Ahhh. I had to view it with a desktop PC to see all of the title. All I could see on mobile was "Woman kill home invad..."

 

[stockrex]

Originally Posted by CT8
Asian ? What does that have to do with anything? She was awesome!!! I am sure we could find faults. A life lesson .If there are intruders send the wife out to get the bad guys.


My apologies, I did not pay any attention to the title of the video. she is a hero and her ethnicity which is immaterial was used by the bad guys to target her unfortunately. Anyway, I think she has what I and most men lack.

Back on topic:
Palmetto has great deal on 10 inch AR pistol barrel upper, but with the lower, the OAL will be nearly 26 inches and add to that can length.
I live in a small house, most doors are 32 inch wide. Bed rooms are tiny with the bed taking up most of the space.

Other options? Uzi with brace and can?

 

[JasonC]

Take a look at the Grand Power Stribog. A friend of mine who is a retired Marine has one and it is an awesome 9mm sub gun.

 

[jjjxlr8]

Nothing wrong with pistol grip shotguns as long as they also have a buttstock!

 

[Rusty9]

An AR pistol will be very short and maneuverable. With the pistol braces that are available these days the AR pistol is a very useful firearm. Here is an AR pistol that I built recently with an 11.3" barrel. Lightweight, handy and 100% reliable.

 

[stockrex]

jjjxlr8, I agree, that then the OAL will be longer than what I am looking for.
Rusty9, Nice gun, what is the OAL on that with the brace?

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted by WyrTwister
For a house gun , get a 12 gauge pump with an 18" barrel .

An AR pistol has GOT to be LOUD .

For a house gun , 100 yard accuracy does not matter much .

I thought about an AR pistol & could not justify it .

I agree 100% .

 

[CT8]

Then quality of the barrel is important to accuracy, the length determines the feet per second of the projectile. The feet per second is important when considering the ability of the military ammo to fragment or the soft point to expand. . Guns are loud in the hose.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Keeping an AR pistol as a home defense gun makes no sense to me unless you live in Baghdad/Kabul and you're an informant on ISIS expecting a reprisal.

It's harder to easily lock up and secure compared to a pistol.
It's still easier to maneuver and maintain a pistol.
According to FBI stats, most self-defense shootings are under 5 rounds.
I wouldn't want to shoot through dry wall and hit my neighbors kid.
When you go to court, an overzealous prosecutor will be all over you.

A good 45 ACP hollow point makes huge holes.

 

[Astro14]

Actually, the .45 ACP and 9mm penetrate walls just as well as the 5.56. So, I wouldn't worry about the penetration of an AR pistol.

Now, my personal choice in an AR pistol would be .300 BLK, which probably penetrates walls pretty well....

And the disadvantages that you list are offset by increased muzzle energy and more ammo capacity.

If it doesn't work for you (and I don't own one, so, it doesn't work for me, either), I understand. But I do see the appeal...

 

[FlyPenFly]

I think AR pistols are cool as heck but I just don't see them being practical from a legal POV for home defense. Are you sure about wall penetration? I think with defensive hollow point pistol ammo penetrates barriers far less than a super fast moving BTHP 5.56mm. I think the beauty of the AR pistol is actually getting in and out of vehicles or engaging multiple opponents at once during say an offensive raid.

There are crazy cases now where civil litigation is being pursued by the family of home invaders for wrongful death suits! So even if you are not criminally charged, you still have to contend with these nonsense lawsuits pursued by these families that will try to portray you as a blood thirsty home defender looking to kill someone with your space gun.