Why are Honda S2000 engines so hard to rebuild?

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Since this year, after 5 years of searching, i am a proud owner of a Honda S2000.
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One thing puzzles me: The original Honda workshop manual describes how the engine can be rebuild. No Hokuspokus, no "Unobtanium" materials are used. Just the cylinderwalls made of FRM need a special honing treatmant, but again, no black magic.

So, to me it seems that every capable engine shop should be able to overhaul this engine. But in contrast, in every forum everybody says that it is almost impossible to rebuild this engine and that most people who tried it ended with bad results. "Get a used engine" is the standard answer.

So, WHY is the Honde S2000 engine so hard to rebuild?
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It's a weird, one off with little in common with the F-series engines, it has more in common with the B-series but not quite.

Not enough machine shops have the skill to work on Honda blocks - tools aren't a problem. I'm guessing the people who rebuild engines in Germany are scared of the nightmares of Nikasil going bad or Honda's FRM liners. In the states, the tuners in SoCal have added boost which needs new pistons/rings/rods to lower the compression ratio and beef up the bottom end.
 
Honing cylinders that aren't lined with cast, grey, or ductile iron is seriously tricky business. It requires expensive tooling, an expensive profilometer, and experience. Sunnen has an article detailing the intricacies of this process and it's quite involved. Frankly it's easier to install Darton sleeves than it is to repair or recondition the factory cylinders. If you screw it up a replacement block or aftermarket sleeves are required to fix it.

This is why no one with the exception of a shop specifically equipped to work on these types of liners wants the job.
 
It probably isn't hard to do for a competent and properly equipped machinist/rebuilder. The issue is that a lot of engines; engines that don't spin to 9 grand, are more tolerant of sloppy work and when that worksmanship is applied to the S2K mill, it fails.
 
Originally Posted by nthach
It's a weird, one off with little in common with the F-series engines, it has more in common with the B-series but not quite.

Not enough machine shops have the skill to work on Honda blocks - tools aren't a problem. I'm guessing the people who rebuild engines in Germany are scared of the nightmares of Nikasil going bad or Honda's FRM liners. In the states, the tuners in SoCal have added boost which needs new pistons/rings/rods to lower the compression ratio and beef up the bottom end.


The S2000's F20C is more like a very early beta version of the K-series
 
Because they're race engines.. Japanese masterpieces like a precious precision time piece.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
It probably isn't hard to do for a competent and properly equipped machinist/rebuilder. The issue is that a lot of engines; engines that don't spin to 9 grand, are more tolerant of sloppy work and when that worksmanship is applied to the S2K mill, it fails.


I was thinking something similar. High revs probably don't help a rebuild. People who own this car don't drive it like a granny and shops don't want to warranty a rebuild that might be iffy.
 
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Originally Posted by JC1
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
It probably isn't hard to do for a competent and properly equipped machinist/rebuilder. The issue is that a lot of engines; engines that don't spin to 9 grand, are more tolerant of sloppy work and when that worksmanship is applied to the S2K mill, it fails.


I was thinking something similar. High revs probably don't help a rebuild. People who own this car don't drive it like a granny and shops don't want to warranty a rebuild that might be iffy.


Yup, look at how many Jasper rebuilds mrsilv04 has been through. If they can botch a standard power density GM V8, they sure as heck aren't going to be able to handle a >100HP/L engine that spins to the moon.
 
Thank you all for your input!

I was thinking for myself that a shop that has a lot of expirience with motorcycle engines is maybe a better choice for overhauling a S2000 engine.
Regarding the FRM cylinders, i hope that the shops get more uesed to them since honda now uses the FRM cylinders more widely.
However, Honda has a very small marketshare here in Germany, only 1,5% or so. Therefore, dedicated Honda rebuild specialist are non existent.

I keep my fingers crossed, maintain the engine well and will see what happens.
 
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Most modern engines aren't very rebuildable. This isn't exclusive to either S2000 mill.
Will the engine last long enough that the car is trash before it dies?
With few exceptions (Mazda RX-8) the answer will be yes.
If your engine seems healthy, then you have no need to worry about tearing it down for a long time to come.
As you've written, maintain it well and drive the car as it was meant to be driven.
Humiliating BMWs was what Honda had in mind.
 
Why do you need a rebuild? The only reasons I can see an Honda engine needing to be torn down is a valve job if the valves made contact with the pistons, a re-ring to fix VCM-related ring gunk and oil burning on their V6s or for performance reasons like "race" pistons with stouter rods for boost or to build a hybrid engine which was heard of in the days of Honda tuning - taking a VTEC head and putting onto certain non-VTEC blocks(the B20 CR-VTEC was a popular combo in that day) or mixing head/block combos in the same engine family to achieve more power or being friendly to boost.
 
Originally Posted by ChristianReske
Thank you all for your input!

I was thinking for myself that a shop that has a lot of expirience with motorcycle engines is maybe a better choice for overhauling a S2000 engine.
Regarding the FRM cylinders, i hope that the shops get more uesed to them since honda now uses the FRM cylinders more widely.
However, Honda has a very small marketshare here in Germany, only 1,5% or so. Therefore, dedicated Honda rebuild specialist are non existent.

I keep my fingers crossed, maintain the engine well and will see what happens.



You would be correct a MC shop would be the best bet. Call this company and ask for Markus Rattel, he is a good guy he will most likely know the best place to get this done if you need it.

https://www.motorrad-rattel.de/index.php
 
@ fdcg27 / nthatch:

my question just came out of curiosity, because almost everybody told me that this engine is not rebuildable, but Hondas workshop manual describe the process in dezail.

And, in my opinion, the Honda S2000 engine hast not a good reputaion for reliability. Most Problems can be traced down to the oil System, but nevertheless... for my taste, there are a little bit to much damaged engines to say the S2000 is reliable like a civic. And, new and used engienes are extremly expensive and mheanwhile scarce. All this together makes me wonder.

So, i go on an keep my fingers crossed.

@ Trav: As allways, thank you!
 
Anything can be refurbished somewhat, its the cost and hassle involved. We now live in the multi thousand dollar throw away engine world. Like $60K Mercedes engines etc. There are even some engines that you can not get the parts to overhaul it, the basic things like gaskets etc. yes but no bearings and such though.
 
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