Help....mixed Hoat with OAT

[Trav]

Originally Posted by Demarpaint
The highlighted sections really should have ENDED this discussion


Of course it should. Some people just feel the need to double and even triple down on stupid instead of admitting they are wrong.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted by StevieC
HOAT = Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. It contains IAT and OAT.
OAT = Organic Acid Technology. It does not contain IAT.

That is the difference. HOAT LITERALLY CONTAINS OAT!




OK, I'm not even saying this for you because you obviously refuse to see the forest for the trees... but for anyone else reading this: NOT TRUE. Its like saying "sodium hypochlorite and ammonia are both disinfectants, so I can mix them and nothing will happen" (hint... don't do that unless you're wearing a breathing apparatus).

"OAT" is not a chemical, its a category of chemicals, called organic acids. There are many, many, different possible organic acids that can be used in cooling systems, and while they all work in a similar way to inhibit corrosion, each different organic acid can have OTHER chemical properties that can be vastly different from one to another. A classic example of this is the organic acid used in DexCool, 2-ethylhexanoate. Its a great corrosion inhibitor, but it has a softening effect on certain gasket materials that can cause them to fail. Engines using 2EHA have to be designed so that they don't use those plastics. On the other hand, the organic acid in G-05 does not attack plastics. Both are organic acids, but react differently when exposed to other chemicals.

It is true that HOATs contain both an organic acid and inorganic components. But they always contain organic acids that are CHOSEN to be compatible with those inorganic components. An OAT has no such restriction- since its meant to be used without inorganics, the organic acid needn't be compatible with any inorganic additives. When you add a random OAT to a HOAT, you are now bringing a DIFFERENT organic acid into the mixture, and it may react violently with a) the inorganic components of the HOAT, b) the other organic acid that is used in the OAT, or c) both.

That is absolutely, unequivocally, clearly what is happening when you mix the two Mopar P/N coolants based on the TSB that was linked. The ammonia smell would indicate that the organic acid in the OAT is likely reacting with the nitrites in the G-05 HOAT (ammonia is NH3, after all), but it could be any number of reactions or sequence of reactions involved.

 

[StevieC]

Here is proof that HOAT has OAT formulation in it. There is nothing in these formulations that would cause sludge in itself if mixed together. The sludge is being caused by HOAT reacting with incompatible materials in an OAT based system. Not because the two coolants were mixed.

http://www.weirparts.com/msds/Chrys...ezeCoolant5Year100000Mile-Embittered.pdf
http://www.weirparts.com/msds/Chrys...zeCoolant10Year150000Mile-Embittered.pdf

Main ingredient in both: Ethylene Glycol ~ 50%
Both also contain a small amount of: Diethylene glycol at less than 3%

One Contains: 4% Hydrated inorganic acid,organic acid salts
The Other Contains 3% Benzoic acid, sodium salt.

THAT'S IT!

AGAIN, I have done it by accident in my own vehicle and it was fine. Furthermore if you look above I provided proof from a coolant manufacturer that says HOAT contains the same formulation as just OAT however it has the addition of IAT.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 440Magnum
Originally Posted by StevieC
HOAT = Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. It contains IAT and OAT.
OAT = Organic Acid Technology. It does not contain IAT.

That is the difference. HOAT LITERALLY CONTAINS OAT!




OK, I'm not even saying this for you because you obviously refuse to see the forest for the trees... but for anyone else reading this: NOT TRUE. Its like saying "sodium hypochlorite and ammonia are both disinfectants, so I can mix them and nothing will happen" (hint... don't do that unless you're wearing a breathing apparatus).

"OAT" is not a chemical, its a category of chemicals, called organic acids. There are many, many, different possible organic acids that can be used in cooling systems, and while they all work in a similar way to inhibit corrosion, each different organic acid can have OTHER chemical properties that can be vastly different from one to another. A classic example of this is the organic acid used in DexCool, 2-ethylhexanoate. Its a great corrosion inhibitor, but it has a softening effect on certain gasket materials that can cause them to fail. Engines using 2EHA have to be designed so that they don't use those plastics. On the other hand, the organic acid in G-05 does not attack plastics. Both are organic acids, but react differently when exposed to other chemicals.

It is true that HOATs contain both an organic acid and inorganic components. But they always contain organic acids that are CHOSEN to be compatible with those inorganic components. An OAT has no such restriction- since its meant to be used without inorganics, the organic acid needn't be compatible with any inorganic additives. When you add a random OAT to a HOAT, you are now bringing a DIFFERENT organic acid into the mixture, and it may react violently with a) the inorganic components of the HOAT, b) the other organic acid that is used in the OAT, or c) both.

That is absolutely, unequivocally, clearly what is happening when you mix the two Mopar P/N coolants based on the TSB that was linked. The ammonia smell would indicate that the organic acid in the OAT is likely reacting with the nitrites in the G-05 HOAT (ammonia is NH3, after all), but it could be any number of reactions or sequence of reactions involved.

Excellent post and sums the risks here up clearly.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by 440Magnum
Originally Posted by StevieC
HOAT = Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. It contains IAT and OAT.
OAT = Organic Acid Technology. It does not contain IAT.

That is the difference. HOAT LITERALLY CONTAINS OAT!




OK, I'm not even saying this for you because you obviously refuse to see the forest for the trees... but for anyone else reading this: NOT TRUE. Its like saying "sodium hypochlorite and ammonia are both disinfectants, so I can mix them and nothing will happen" (hint... don't do that unless you're wearing a breathing apparatus).

"OAT" is not a chemical, its a category of chemicals, called organic acids. There are many, many, different possible organic acids that can be used in cooling systems, and while they all work in a similar way to inhibit corrosion, each different organic acid can have OTHER chemical properties that can be vastly different from one to another. A classic example of this is the organic acid used in DexCool, 2-ethylhexanoate. Its a great corrosion inhibitor, but it has a softening effect on certain gasket materials that can cause them to fail. Engines using 2EHA have to be designed so that they don't use those plastics. On the other hand, the organic acid in G-05 does not attack plastics. Both are organic acids, but react differently when exposed to other chemicals.

It is true that HOATs contain both an organic acid and inorganic components. But they always contain organic acids that are CHOSEN to be compatible with those inorganic components. An OAT has no such restriction- since its meant to be used without inorganics, the organic acid needn't be compatible with any inorganic additives. When you add a random OAT to a HOAT, you are now bringing a DIFFERENT organic acid into the mixture, and it may react violently with a) the inorganic components of the HOAT, b) the other organic acid that is used in the OAT, or c) both.

That is absolutely, unequivocally, clearly what is happening when you mix the two Mopar P/N coolants based on the TSB that was linked. The ammonia smell would indicate that the organic acid in the OAT is likely reacting with the nitrites in the G-05 HOAT (ammonia is NH3, after all), but it could be any number of reactions or sequence of reactions involved.




Again, we tried. I hope no one here gets the wrong idea and goes for it. Spend the money and buy the proper coolant, Chrysler didn't write the TSB because they had nothing better to do, and they didn't write it because they didn't encounter problems.

TSB - 07-004-12 REV. A
SUBJECT:
Attention! Release Of New Engine Coolant Organic Additive Technology (OAT)
MODELS:
2013 (D2) Ram Truck (3500 Pick Up)
2013 (DD) Ram Truck (3500 Chassis Cab)
2013 (DJ) Ram Truck (2500 Pick Up)
2013 (DP) Ram Truck (4500 / 5500 Chassis Cab)
2013 (DX) Ram Truck (Mexico)
2013 (DS) Ram Truck (1500)
2013 (FF) Fiat 500
2013 (JC) Journey
2013 (JK) Wrangler
2013 (JS) Avenger/200
2013 (LC) Challenger
2013 (LD) Charger
2013 (LX) 300
2013 (MK) Compass/Patriot
2013 (PF) Dart
2013 (RT) Town & Country/Grand Caravan
2013 (WD) Durango
2013 (WK) Grand Cherokee
2013 (ZD) Viper
NOTE: This bulletins applies to all vehicle listed above for every engine application
EXCEPT the 2013 MK equipped with the 2.2L Diesel engine (sales code ENE)
and the JC vehicle equipped with the 2.0L Diesel engine (sales code EBT).
NUMBER:
07-004-12 REV. A

GROUP:
Cooling

DATE:
November 03, 2012

DISCUSSION:
Chrysler Corporation LLC. has released a new engine coolant for the 2013 model year
vehicles and beyond, for all engine applications except the ones listed in the note above.
This new coolant is an Organic Additive Technology (OAT) (
Fig. 1). OAT coolants have a
service interval of 10 years or 150,000 miles. For heavy duty truck and extreme duty cycle
applications refer to the Service Information or Owner's Manual for proper maintenance
schedules.

CAUTION: Vehicle Damage may occur if dissimilar coolants are mixed!
Coolants of different technologies are not compatible nor interchangeable (OAT, HOAT or
IAT).
Mixing these coolants could result in:
• accelerated corrosion within the engine and cooling systems.
• the coolant having an ammonia smell.
• debris (particles) floating in the coolant.
Further inspection by the technician may find corrosion in the system. This could show up
as aluminum pipes turning black in the coolant system, engine overheat, or leaks in the
coolant system.
NOTE: If OAT (MOPAR P/N 68163848AA Purple) has been Mixed with HOAT (MOPAR
P/N 68048953AB Pink Or Factory Fill HOAT Orange (
Fig. 2) or (Fig. 3)) or any
other coolants have been mixed, it will be necessary to flush the cooling system.

 

[StevieC]

Here is proof that HOAT has OAT formulation in it.. There is nothing in these formulations that would cause sludge in itself if mixed together. The sludge is being caused by HOAT reacting with incompatible materials in an OAT based system. Not because the two coolants were mixed.

http://www.weirparts.com/msds/Chrys...ezeCoolant5Year100000Mile-Embittered.pdf
http://www.weirparts.com/msds/Chrys...zeCoolant10Year150000Mile-Embittered.pdf

Main ingredient in both: Ethylene Glycol ~ 50%
Both also contain a small amount of: Diethylene glycol at less than 3%

One Contains: 4% Hydrated inorganic acid,organic acid salts
The Other Contains 3% Benzoic acid, sodium salt.

THAT'S IT!

AGAIN, I have done it by accident in my own vehicle and it was fine. Furthermore if you look above I provided proof from a coolant manufacturer that says HOAT contains the same formulation as just OAT however it has the addition of IAT.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Here is proof that HOAT has OAT formulation in it along with IAT.


You aren't reading what 440Magnum is posting or simply not getting it. I'm not sure how he could make it any clearer?

OAT and HOAT are categories, not specific products. The composition of a these products can and does vary and there is no guarantee that mixing them will not result in negative consequences. Quite the opposite actually, if you look at the TSB quoted.

Originally Posted by StevieC
There is nothing in these formulations that would cause sludge in itself if mixed together. The sludge is being caused by HOAT reacting with incompatible materials in an OAT based system. Not because the two coolants were mixed.

http://www.weirparts.com/msds/Chrys...ezeCoolant5Year100000Mile-Embittered.pdf
http://www.weirparts.com/msds/Chrys...zeCoolant10Year150000Mile-Embittered.pdf

Main ingredient in both: Ethylene Glycol ~ 50%
Both also contain a small amount of: Diethylene glycol at less than 3%

One Contains: 4% Hydrated inorganic acid,organic acid salts
The Other Contains 3% Benzoic acid, sodium salt.

THAT'S IT!


Like with oil, an MSDS isn't a recipe. Anything that isn't a hazard can and generally is omitted. Furthermore "Hydrated inorganic acid, organic acid salts" is in no way specific and indicates two families of products, which is in-line with what 440Magnum has posted.

Originally Posted by StevieC
AGAIN, I have done it by accident in my own vehicle and it was fine. Furthermore if you look above I provided proof from a coolant manufacturer that says HOAT contains the same formulation as just OAT however it has the addition of IAT.


That's the "pile of failed engines" argument, just applied to coolant. Just because you didn't immediately observe anything bad happening doesn't make this recommended or even safe. Chrysler's own documentation indicates the complete opposite.

One coolant manufacturer's statement about their specific product is again, completely irrelevant. Valvoline might use the same additive package across 5 different oils, that doesn't mean Mobil does.

 

[StevieC]

I know OAT isn't a chemical by itself, it's a formulation as listed in the SDS posted above, my point is that if you look at the ingredients the only difference is the minor additives which don't cause sludging if mixed together. The main ingredient in both is Ethylene glycol. The difference between the two is that one is a Hybrid Organic Acid Technology and the other is not a Hybrid but just standard Organic Acid Technology. The coolant manufacturer link above said that HOAT formulations contain the same ingredients as OAT formulations however they have additional stuff added. So this would prove that an OAT formulation can be mixed with a HOAT formulation just fine. It's the HOAT formulation reacting with materials in the OAT designed system that is the problem. Not the chemical formulations themselves being mixed together.

This is why the 2014 and newer vehicles have this TSB so that no one goes pouring in a ton of HOAT into an OAT only system because it's not compatible with the materials. This is also why when I mixed HOAT and OAT in small amounts in my overflow bottle of the Journey and drove it like this for 1,000km (600 miles) and then realized it did NO DAMAGE and cause NO SLUDGE over the 60,000 miles (100,000km) before it was in the accident.

I have both and can mix in a jar together to show everyone that no sludge will result. I'll even heat it to 200F as well. It's the reaction of HOAT coolant in an OAT designed system that causes the problem not the chemicals itself.

 

[StevieC]

Quote
There are three basic coolant types on the market today: (IAT) Inorganic Acid Technology, (OAT) Organic Acid Technology and (HOAT) Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. Your BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Audi or Volkswagen uses an HOAT coolant. HOAT coolants are derived from OAT coolants with the addition of silicate to protect aluminum surfaces. Many components of your BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen engine and cooling systems are made of aluminum including the cylinder heads and radiators. Although you can mix coolant types without harm, it is highly recommended that you do not. Mixing an HOAT or OAT coolant with an IAT will lose the extended life properties.

More proof not from me... https://www.germanautocenter.com/blog/what-coolant-is-right-for-my-german-automobile/

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
I know OAT isn't a chemical by itself, it's a formulation as listed in the SDS posted above, my point is that if you look at the ingredients the only difference is the minor additives which don't cause sludging if mixed together. The main ingredient in both is Ethylene glycol. The difference between the two is that one is a Hybrid Organic Acid Technology and the other is not a Hybrid but just standard Organic Acid Technology.


How do you know that? The MSDS is not a recipe and it is not only possible but probable that there are ingredients in the product not listed. Furthermore, since the one ingredient was just two vague categories, we have no idea what those ingredients are. It does not require significant quantities of additives to cause negative interactions. The main ingredient in battery acid is water, does that make it safe to mix with other products that may also contain water simply because it is diluted? Of course not.

Originally Posted by StevieC
The coolant manufacturer link above said that HOAT formulations contain the same ingredients as OAT formulations however they have additional stuff added. So this would prove that an OAT formulation can be mixed with a HOAT formulation just fine. It's the HOAT formulation reacting with materials in the OAT designed system that is the problem. Not the chemical formulations themselves.


That only applies to their products, as I noted with my Mobil and Valvoline additive package examples. There is no regulation that implores whomever is doing the blending for Mopar to adhere to this same principle and in fact the TSB completely contradicts it.

Originally Posted by StevieC
This is why the 2014 and newer vehicles have this TSB so that no one goes pouring in a ton of HOAT into an OAT only system because it's not compatible with the materials. This is also why when I mixed HOAT and OAT in small amounts in my overflow bottle of the Journey and drove it like this for 1,000km (600 miles) and then realized it did NO DAMAGE and cause NO SLUDGE over the 60,000 miles (100,000km) before it was in the accident.


The TSB indicates a heck of a lot more than materials compatibility issues as 440Magnum noted. Again, your personal anecdote is irrelevant, demarpaint provided a ton of contrary anecdotes that you dismissed because of your single example. What makes yours more valid than his?

Ultimately, what's detailed in the TSB should be reason enough for anybody to avoid mixing these two products. The negative interactions noted are significant.

 

[StevieC]

Quote
There are three basic coolant types on the market today: (IAT) Inorganic Acid Technology, (OAT) Organic Acid Technology and (HOAT) Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. Your BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Audi or Volkswagen uses an HOAT coolant. HOAT coolants are derived from OAT coolants with the addition of silicate to protect aluminum surfaces. Many components of your BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen engine and cooling systems are made of aluminum including the cylinder heads and radiators. Although you can mix coolant types without harm, it is highly recommended that you do not. Mixing an HOAT or OAT coolant with an IAT will lose the extended life properties.

More proof not from me... https://www.germanautocenter.com/blog/what-coolant-is-right-for-my-german-automobile

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Quote
There are three basic coolant types on the market today: (IAT) Inorganic Acid Technology, (OAT) Organic Acid Technology and (HOAT) Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. Your BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Audi or Volkswagen uses an HOAT coolant. HOAT coolants are derived from OAT coolants with the addition of silicate to protect aluminum surfaces. Many components of your BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen engine and cooling systems are made of aluminum including the cylinder heads and radiators. Although you can mix coolant types without harm, it is highly recommended that you do not. Mixing an HOAT or OAT coolant with an IAT will lose the extended life properties.

More proof not from me... https://www.germanautocenter.com/blog/what-coolant-is-right-for-my-german-automobile


Again, the statement from the OEM takes precedent here over a simplified claim from a tech blog.

 

[StevieC]

I'm not saying you should mix HOAT in an OAT cooling system by choice and that it won't lead to sludge. What I'm saying is that HOAT coolants have OAT formulations in them with the addition of other stuff and that mixing a little together isn't going to cause a problem.

At the end of the day use what the OE intended however if a little HOAT makes it into your OAT system, again LITTLE, it's no cause for panic.

That's all I was getting at. Had this been a spill/fill using HOAT as the refill in this OAT system I would agree to change it out. A few cups in an 11 litre (or so) system? Not a problem.

 

[Trav]

Thanks for a very informative post, I learned something. IMO if a company issues a TSB its usually because the issue cost them some real money and they have done the testing, the TSB should be followed.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Trav
Thanks for a very informative post, I learned something. IMO if a company issues a TSB its usually because the issue cost them some real money and they have done the testing, the TSB should be followed.

Yeah refilling a OAT system with HOAT system. Agreed totally. Never disputed that. Disputed that mixing HOAT and OAT itself was a problem and that the problem is with the HOAT not being compatible with the OAT cooling system components and that is why the TSB was issued.

Then also proved that HOAT coolants contain the same formulation of OAT coolants with some other minor stuff added and provided multiple sources to back that up.

 

[KrisZ]

Can have the names of few materials not compatible in a cooling system that would be specifically designed for OAT coolant but totally not compatible with an HOAT one? Like I mentioned earlier, I'm pretty sure plenty of early GM owners successfully switched to G-05 coolant without an issues.
One would think that GMs cooling system was specifically designed for OAT type coolant.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Can have the names of few materials not compatible in a cooling system that would be specifically designed for OAT coolant but totally not compatible with an HOAT one?


Yea, I'd love to see that list too. My bet, is repeated heating and cooling of the two in a pressurized system doesn't bode well for the mix. Like I said earler, Chrysler didn't write the TSB because they had nothing better to do, and they didn't write it because they didn't encounter problems. Very costly problems.

 

[StevieC]

HOAT is compatible with copper tubing and copper radiators as well as lead solder joints and OAT is not.
OAT is all aluminum, rubber and plastic only and has enhanced corrosion protection.

This corrosion protection is why OAT lasts 10 years versus 5 years in the HOAT formulation.

 

[Shannow]

This thread is priceless...

LOLing

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by Shannow

This thread is priceless...

LOLing


It is isn't it? I'm laughing too. And still there is no way in [censored] I'd mix the two, or recommend anyone tries it either.............

People reading this planning on topping up, pay up, use OAT if that is what you have, and HOAT if that is what you have in a Chrysler product. Oh and if your AF mix is strong enough, you can top up with distilled water, that mixes with both.