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Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO #4928930 11/19/18 12:39 PM
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Virtus_Probi Offline OP
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I just took a peek through the XOM SDS vault (be sure to put a dash inside the oil grade or you will be frustrated!) and was surprised by what I found.
Googling "1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED" has assured me that this is a type of PAO and these are the levels that XOM reports for three oils I am interested in.

M1 5W30 - 20 to 30%
M1 0W30 AFE - 10 to 20%
M1 5W30 AP - 5 to 10%

I know that PAO level on its own doesn't tell us much about the overall quality of the oil in use...but I was surprised that 0W30 didn't use more to help with low temp pumpability/cranking performance and also surprised that AP was the lowest concentration of the bunch.
Apologies if this has already been discussed...

BTW, these were for US products.

Last edited by Virtus_Probi; 11/19/18 12:45 PM.

2014 Forester XT, 111000 miles
Last Change;
M1 0W30 AFE
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4928941 11/19/18 12:50 PM
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Onetor Offline
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Maybe they are using more Esters? But, that is speculation. Perhaps our Tribologists will opine?


N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4928964 11/19/18 01:05 PM
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There was a discussion about SDSs on here not too long ago. The industry experts basically said you can't rely on the percentages shown on the SDS to be representative of what is actually in the jug as far as PAO or any other proprietary ingredients are concerned. It's not an oil formula in the SDS, it is just there to assist the safety side for spills, fires, or health hazards. Are all the chemicals on the SDS in the mix? Yep. Are they representative of the quantity of the mixture? Nope. Sorry.


De omnibus dubitandum.
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4928982 11/19/18 01:32 PM
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Bryanccfshr Online Content
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
There was a discussion about SDSs on here not too long ago. The industry experts basically said you can't rely on the percentages shown on the SDS to be representative of what is actually in the jug as far as PAO or any other proprietary ingredients are concerned. It's not an oil formula in the SDS, it is just there to assist the safety side for spills, fires, or health hazards. Are all the chemicals on the SDS in the mix? Yep. Are they representative of the quantity of the mixture? Nope. Sorry.

Exactly, proprietary or trade secrets are allowed not to be disclosed on the SDS as long as the information serves the purposes for some of the following.ocleanup, firefighting, medical treatment and first aid measures, and informing of possible reactions, or hazardous storage practices to be avoided, and protective measures to be used when properly using the product. Such as PPE and engineering or administrative controls.


2018 Trd Pro 4Runner
2018 Tacoma off-road

Dealer 0w20 to M1 0w40 FS -it depends
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4928987 11/19/18 01:35 PM
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Gokhan Offline
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Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
I just took a peek through the XOM SDS vault (be sure to put a dash inside the oil grade or you will be frustrated!) and was surprised by what I found.
Googling "1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED" has assured me that this is a type of PAO and these are the levels that XOM reports for three oils I am interested in.

M1 5W30 - 20 to 30%
M1 0W30 AFE - 10 to 20%
M1 5W30 AP - 5 to 10%

I know that PAO level on its own doesn't tell us much about the overall quality of the oil in use...but I was surprised that 0W30 didn't use more to help with low temp pumpability/cranking performance and also surprised that AP was the lowest concentration of the bunch.
Apologies if this has already been discussed...

BTW, these were for US products.

In some products, they decrease PAO because they use GTL. Therefore, you should also look at the GTL numbers.

The products with highest PAO are M1 EP 0W-20, M1 AP 0W-20, and M1 0W-16. All these oils are mostly PAO.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4928991 11/19/18 01:40 PM
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What about 1-dodecene polymerized and then hydrogenated? Also a PAO. If picky, there are probably numerous long chain 1-alkenes being used, for example. You just picked one.


2019 VW Passat 2.0 liter gasoline DI engine, DI, 2,700 miles, Castrol Professional VW 508 0W-20
2017 VW Golf All Track 1.8 liter gas engine DI, 25,500 miles Castrol Professional VW 505 5W-40
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Boomer] #4929003 11/19/18 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Boomer
What about 1-dodecene polymerized and then hydrogenated? Also a PAO. If picky, there are probably numerous long chain 1-alkenes being used, for example. You just picked one.

Mobil 1 uses the same generic name in their MSDS's for all PAO types.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4929005 11/19/18 01:53 PM
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Throt Offline
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Ohhhhh MolaKule where are you?


'18 Honda Accord Touring, 1.5T, 18,750mi, 1/2 M1 AFE 0w20, 1/2 PPPP 5w30 w/ M1 filter.
'19 Elantra, 2.0NA, 6,500mi, FF/Filter, hers (lease)
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Boomer] #4929034 11/19/18 02:13 PM
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Virtus_Probi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Boomer
What about 1-dodecene polymerized and then hydrogenated? Also a PAO. If picky, there are probably numerous long chain 1-alkenes being used, for example. You just picked one.

I only saw the one type listed in the M1 sheets I looked at.
Maybe the one you gave is "safer" and doesn't need to be listed in a SDS?
I am ignorant and am hoping to learn!

EDIT - this was actually the only substance listed in the M1 5W30 SDS.

Last edited by Virtus_Probi; 11/19/18 02:40 PM.

2014 Forester XT, 111000 miles
Last Change;
M1 0W30 AFE
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4929097 11/19/18 02:57 PM
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The only way to tell for sure is to spend the $1300 for a lab to test its make-up according to MolaKule.
Until then it's all speculation using the SDS or PDS technical specs to try and figure it out.

Maybe we should take up a collection with all the users here. If we all chip in a couple bucks per analysis we should be able to come up with the money to do it. wink

Last edited by StevieC; 11/19/18 02:58 PM.

'18 Caravan - 48k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4929161 11/19/18 03:34 PM
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oil_film_movies Offline
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Why would there be any PAO if all-Group3 will pass the specs targeted? PAO is more expensive. Its a for-profit business. .... For EP & AP products, sure it makes sense since Mobil tells everybody they can do 15k-20k miles, allright got that. ;; For the other flavors of M1 where they say to change according to OLM or owner's manual, it doesn't make sense to use ANY PAO at all. Other oils have none and are still dexos1 Gen2. .. Ravenol is even worse at profitability, as their DXG 5w30 dexos1 oil is all-PAO/ester, and apparently they "need" tungsten to go with their moly to get a dexos1 oil.

Maybe there is some savings in the amount of anti-ox, VII, and/or FM when using some PAO to replace some Group3 ?

Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4929206 11/19/18 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
There was a discussion about SDSs on here not too long ago.

Many moons ago, I was a dangerous goods inspector. You're right; they're not recipes. No one (outside of maybe a competitor) is going to care in the slightest if the numbers are out a bit. A technical synthetic spilled or on fire on the side of the road is going to be handled just the same as a Group I monograde on the side of the road in the same condition. Now, if you're hauling compressed oxygen and you call that hydrocracked mineral oil, you're going to have a problem.

You might get some ideas from the SDS, but you really have to be cautious.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: oil_film_movies] #4929271 11/19/18 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Why would there be any PAO if all-Group3 will pass the specs targeted? PAO is more expensive. Its a for-profit business. .... For EP & AP products, sure it makes sense since Mobil tells everybody they can do 15k-20k miles, allright got that. ;; For the other flavors of M1 where they say to change according to OLM or owner's manual, it doesn't make sense to use ANY PAO at all. Other oils have none and are still dexos1 Gen2. .. Ravenol is even worse at profitability, as their DXG 5w30 dexos1 oil is all-PAO/ester, and apparently they "need" tungsten to go with their moly to get a dexos1 oil.

Maybe there is some savings in the amount of anti-ox, VII, and/or FM when using some PAO to replace some Group3 ?


Indeed true on the profit side … but EMCC is a maker, user, and seller … likely a complicated world since they have contracts to deliver all kinds of base stock to all kinds of customers … along with finished/relabeled lubricant, and OEM specs to keep up with in Mobil lines …
Sometimes we also forget they have big industrial numbers to meet … stuff you don’t find at Walmart …

Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4929373 11/19/18 06:49 PM
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Virtus_Probi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
There was a discussion about SDSs on here not too long ago. The industry experts basically said you can't rely on the percentages shown on the SDS to be representative of what is actually in the jug as far as PAO or any other proprietary ingredients are concerned. It's not an oil formula in the SDS, it is just there to assist the safety side for spills, fires, or health hazards. Are all the chemicals on the SDS in the mix? Yep. Are they representative of the quantity of the mixture? Nope. Sorry.

I realize there is plenty of stuff not shown in an SDS (the one for M1 5W30 only lists the one ingredient as about 1/4 of the total product), but couldn't there possibly be a liability issue if they give a percentage for a "hazardous" component that is way off?
I have a hard time seeing a benefit for XOM in saying M1 5W30 is 20-30% one flavor of PAO if the truth is vastly different, it's not like their competitors aren't going to get the stuff thoroughly analyzed if they want to get some dope on it as opposed to reading online documentation.


2014 Forester XT, 111000 miles
Last Change;
M1 0W30 AFE
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Interesting M1 0/5W-30 SDS Info - PAO [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4929634 11/19/18 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
There was a discussion about SDSs on here not too long ago. The industry experts basically said you can't rely on the percentages shown on the SDS to be representative of what is actually in the jug as far as PAO or any other proprietary ingredients are concerned. It's not an oil formula in the SDS, it is just there to assist the safety side for spills, fires, or health hazards. Are all the chemicals on the SDS in the mix? Yep. Are they representative of the quantity of the mixture? Nope. Sorry.

I realize there is plenty of stuff not shown in an SDS (the one for M1 5W30 only lists the one ingredient as about 1/4 of the total product), but couldn't there possibly be a liability issue if they give a percentage for a "hazardous" component that is way off?
I have a hard time seeing a benefit for XOM in saying M1 5W30 is 20-30% one flavor of PAO if the truth is vastly different, it's not like their competitors aren't going to get the stuff thoroughly analyzed if they want to get some dope on it as opposed to reading online documentation.

I think M1 PAO numbers in the MSDS's are accurate withing the given 10% range.

However, POE is not hazardous and not shown in the MSDS as a result. Most M1 oils have also some POE in the base oil, even though it may not be more than a couple of percent.

As far as I know, AN is not hazardous either (therefore, wouldn't appear in the MSDS) but I doubt if any M1 oil still has AN. It was perhaps used in the Mobil 1 TriSyn days.

If it's in the base oil, GTL appears in M1 MSDS's, not by name but by a CAS #.

Interestingly, Valvoline Restore is 100% PAO + POE + AN according to its's patent. The POE and AN do the vigorous cleaning in one OCI while the oxidatively stable PAO doesn't cause new deposits.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
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