The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear

Could it be that in using the oil they also use the oil filter? The filter is at its best as far as filtering just before its clogged.

I agree that used oil is always worse at lubricating than new oil.

But a used oil filter is better at (at any one instant) filtering than a new one unless its gets clogged and goes into bypass and then you will wish you had used a new oil filter. How much better? Not sure. Bypass filter is the solution there however.
 
Used oil lubricates just the same as fresh oil assuming a UOA hasn't condemned it for either fuel dilution / additive depletion etc.
 
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Originally Posted by JAG
New motor oil's detergents and dispersants don't have a lot of contaminants to attach to, so they interfere and compete more with the antiwear additives. The new antiwear additives gradually chemically transform into more effective antiwear species, due to heat and rubbing. Other reactions create various esters and carboxylate acids that provide antiwear abilities. These are the things that make used oil improve as the oil ages.

There are negative things happening as well as oil ages. Abrasive particles accumulate in the oil. Fuel and water dilution increases rapidly early on, then stabilizes, as long as outside temperature and usage stays the same. If there is a coolant leak into the oil, that is obviously bad. Deposit precursors increase with usage. For a while, that is not a problem. Eventually, the oil will start to allow deposits to accumulate. It may still be providing excellent antiwear protection. If it has too many abrasives, it will allow increased wear to occur, compared to itself when it was younger. Many oils that "fail", do so by being used too long and they leave a deposit mess behind. They do not fail due to ineffective antiwear additives.



Well said and informative!
 
Originally Posted by Donald

I agree that used oil is always worse at lubricating than new oil.



PROVE IT ... please
Used = used 5 minutes, used 5 hours, used 5 weeks, used 5,000 miles, used 5 years....... used what? used 5 seconds?
 
Originally Posted by Onetor
Originally Posted by Bluestream
Originally Posted by JLTD
Dnewton3 has taken dino to 15,000 miles there is a lot of wiggle room.


Do you have a link to that?


I remember seeing that. Amazing!


It was in his wife's "Soccer Mom" minivan....

I think it was the plain Jane SuperTech oil (NON-synthetic) that Walmart sells at a low cost.
 
It was in his wifes Mercury Villager. And it was plain Jane oil. We were discussing it by PM this week.

Quote
You may or may not have read of my wife's old Villager we had many years ago. Total soccer mom type use; short trips, multiple cold starts each day, typical weather extremes (cold/hot) in the mid-west. That kind of use would be considered "severe" by the manual; called for 3k mile OCIs. And yet, as an experiment, I started pushing the OCIs out. First 5k (the "normal" OCI). Then 10k. Then finally 15k miles. When I ran UOAs, the wear rates never changed much at all. All this on a MC filter and dino SuperTech oil! So the OEM limit of 3k miles was "over-run" by a factor of FIVE (out to 15k miles). And yet no abnormal wear and no expensive lubes. Been doing that on her Grand Marquis, too, And mine.


Certainly before SN+ Dexos 1 Gen 2 oils of today!
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If used oil is so great... Why don't they sell it that way
smile.gif


Say it has only 1k to 2k miles on it...

Can see the ads now...

Mobil -2...

Used, Tough, Proven already oil... Best you can get!!

Why if used oil is so great... Race teams put fresh oil in the cars before a long race?? Is that actually a bad idea?? Maybe.
 
Originally Posted by bbhero
If used oil is so great... Why don't they sell it that way
smile.gif


Say it has only 1k to 2k miles on it...

Can see the ads now...

Mobil -2...

Used, Tough, Proven already oil... Best you can get!!

Why if used oil is so great... Race teams put fresh oil in the cars before a long race?? Is that actually a bad idea?? Maybe.


I wonder if in their testing they take into consideration that it is impossible to drain 100% of the oil from an engine, and that old oil mixes with the new oil. It could be quite a bit depending on the engine. So any samples they draw once the engine is fired has that old oil mixed in, and all the junk it was carrying in suspension. That would also account for a spike in wear metals early on, and then the dropping off. Since I'm not familiar with exactly how the testing was done, I revert back to the real world, engines in cars driven every day, not controlled lab testing. If there is a link on how this data was obtained I would like to see it, since I haven't, and I probably missed it.
 
Originally Posted by Donald
Could it be that in using the oil they also use the oil filter? The filter is at its best as far as filtering just before its clogged.

I agree that used oil is always worse at lubricating than new oil.

But a used oil filter is better at (at any one instant) filtering than a new one unless its gets clogged and goes into bypass and then you will wish you had used a new oil filter. How much better? Not sure. Bypass filter is the solution there however.


Exactly what that SAE paper goes to show is that new oil effectively is worse at lubricating and produces more wear than when that same oil has been in the engine for a while !
 
Originally Posted by bbhero
If used oil is so great... Why don't they sell it that way
smile.gif



Simple........ difficulty in Marketing, packaging, and transporting.


I take in used oil from others for free all the time, and use it for various things.

When I was in high school and was "that kid" in the local car dealer making $3.35 an hour in the 80's,

I ALWAYS saved the used oil that was low miles and put it in my own vehicles.
 
Most misrepresented paper on the board unfortunately.

Speculation, supposition, and statements of fact made by people who haven't read any more than the SAE Summary...heck, one time it as raised, a poser stated with utter confidence that it was due to the used oil shearing in service and that thinner oil lubricates better...even defended those statements in the absence of reading the paper, and therefore seeing that the oil had thickened markedly, well out of grade (and no to the usual suspects who will try to turn this into me claiming that higher viscosity did it).

The used oils were typically thickened well out of grade. All had crossed over the TAN/TBN crossover well before the 15,000 mile mark....and some had gone onto "hide the wear metals", where metals that were in the oil at 7-8,000 miles had reduced markedly towards the end … sludge ??? a distinct possibility.

The new and used oil samples were then applied to a cam and disk arrangement, run by an electric motor.

Friction and wear were measured.

The used oils established tribofilms much quicker than the new oil, resulting in less friction and wear versus the new oils, which had to undergo "activation" to form the chemical entities that produce the tribofilms...i.e. you don't just go from ZDDP to iron phosphate glasses without going to something else first...The protective soluble Mo compounds break down to MoS2, which is the protective part in the tribofilms...MoDTC isn't the species that is in the films.

So...used oil forms tribofilms more quickly and effectively than new...surprise surprise.

What that DOESN'T say is that extended OCIs produce less wear, or that fresh oil eliminated the already extant tribofilms
 
Originally Posted by bbhero
If used oil is so great... Why don't they sell it that way
smile.gif



Sort of do in a way...the more species of Anti Wear additives are added, the different temperatures that they form tribofilms.

Used to be a big lug of ZDDP was the way to do business...Could add a few different forms (molecular weights), and now we've got different types of moly including MoDTC...molakule's SX-Up had Antimony and all sorts of other stuff in it...I liked the concept.


Originally Posted by bbhero
Used, Tough, Proven already oil... Best you can get!!

Why if used oil is so great... Race teams put fresh oil in the cars before a long race?? Is that actually a bad idea?? Maybe.



Given the paper, I can see used oil MIGHT make a better break-in oil (I can sell breakin additive sized quarts if people want to buy it via PM...but that also carries all the other junk from the last engine that it was run in, which may not be the best...so new dosed up with moly assembly lube is probably the better idea IMO.
 
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Not sure how relevant a 2007 study is in our modern GDI/TGDI world.


GDI/TGDI demands even longer intervals as you really, really don't want to subject such engines to brand new oil if you can avoid it due to the well-known higher volatilization phase of virgin motor oil.
 
Funny the continual questioning of information based on the age of the papers.

Wonder what the basis for requiring "fresh" information is ?

Apple falling on Newtons head has to be replicated in 2018, or we accept that they fell out of trees then, and still do today ?
 
Originally Posted by pitzel
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Not sure how relevant a 2007 study is in our modern GDI/TGDI world.


GDI/TGDI demands even longer intervals as you really, really don't want to subject such engines to brand new oil if you can avoid it due to the well-known higher volatilization phase of virgin motor oil.

Fuel dilution and carbon particulate contamination of the oil are good reasons to follow the OCI in the Owners Manual on GDI/TGDI-equipped vehicles.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Funny the continual questioning of information based on the age of the papers.

Wonder what the basis for requiring "fresh" information is ?

Apple falling on Newtons head has to be replicated in 2018, or we accept that they fell out of trees then, and still do today ?

In 2007, less than 2% of cars being manufactured had GDI/TGDI engines. Today, more than 50% are GDI/TGDI. The specific problems of these engines such as fuel dilution and carbon particulate contamination of the oil may well have changed the "wear equation" and produced different results than those in the 2007 study.
 
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Originally Posted by pitzel
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Not sure how relevant a 2007 study is in our modern GDI/TGDI world.


GDI/TGDI demands even longer intervals as you really, really don't want to subject such engines to brand new oil if you can avoid it due to the well-known higher volatilization phase of virgin motor oil.

Fuel dilution and carbon particulate contamination of the oil are good reasons to follow the OCI in the Owners Manual on GDI/TGDI-equipped vehicles.


Those recommendations are a decent compromise. I certainly wouldn't change oil more frequently than the manufacturer's spec, in some sort of altruistic and unfortunately tragically misguided belief that its 'better' for the engine though.
 
All the more reason to do at least one UOA on the vehicle to see what is safe and what isn't. It saves you on unnecessary oil changes over and over again & possible unnecessary wear. I don't understand folks spending this giant sum of money for a vehicle that depreciates in value but won't spend a few bucks on a UOA to prove what is safe and what isn't at least once.
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