Tariffs, Un-intended Consequences

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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Friend, no one ever plays by the same rules, especially if they say they do.
Just sayin'...


Exactly. Trade is already so perverted that the very notion that we need to adhere to some noble pact of free market goodness and that we were there prior to these latest events is downright laughable. The truly free market, in all its naked glory, is a concept, just like communism. And, like communism, it isn't ever going to work, because there can be no pure form.
 
I feel like protecting workers is simply making up for their lack of drive to educate and reinvent themselves. People want to goof off in high school skip seconadry education and walk into "good paying" work. Guess what the gig is up. Instead of putting money into educating themselves they go off buying homes, cars, boats they can afford pay check to pay check.

We have a ton of openings for factory work locally . Guess what you have to do 2 year college to be placed into it . The Chinese can do the uneducated Americans jobs and very well. We need skilled labor forces.

A well paid Mexican can make my appliance or VW instead of a US worker who whines about falling wages and . Who is happier with their job?

I design cloud applications and use cheaper labor across the borders north and south to assemble the work. It works. I did not wait around for our government to protect me.
 
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So what are we doing wrong that others can do it better or cheaper?

You seem to think the problem is with Japan or China?

You also seem to think they can sell at a loss forever.

It's not like we were not Japan or China 100-150 years ago. Heck, after WW2, we were one of the few functional manufacturing economies in the world.

I think we became complacent and others have improved.


Originally Posted by Kruse
Originally Posted by javacontour
hatt said:
If China wants to sell goods on the market for less than they cost to produce, we should buy them..


So just a theoretical question here...
Let's suppose Japan or perhaps now China sells semiconductors so low that it puts all of the US manufacturing out of business. (Theoretical question, remember)
And they do the same on steel, in other words, they sell it to us so low that all the U.S. steel mills close up.
Same way with tires, timber, everything...
And then the US has to go to war (for some reason, there could be several reasons)
You need manufacturing to products to win a war effort.
Where are you going to get your manufacturing base? Remember, just a theoretical question.
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted by javacontour


I think we became complacent and others have improved.





We also had repressive business taxation that drove our manufacturing out of the Country.
 
So the solution to that is more taxation in the form of tariffs?

Remember, the Chinese are not paying the tariffs, the US importers do, which are then passed on to you and me, meaning you and I pay those higher taxes.

You don't solve the problem by punishing your people even more.

If things are as you say the Chinese are being bad, why do people advocate for policies that punish Americans?

Tariffs are like punishing your children because the neighbor's kids are misbehaving.

Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by javacontour


I think we became complacent and others have improved.





We also had repressive business taxation that drove our manufacturing out of the Country.
 
Even if corporate taxes here was 0% they would still run overseas because of slave labour. Corporations are about efficiency and will do what is necessary to bring down their costs to the lowest possible regardless of what is good for their home country or the environment.
 
True, but do you want others to be forced to pay artificially high prices if they wish to buy Chinese goods?

Do you like the price of domestically sourced good to rise because the market is manipulated by an artificially high floor on goods.

You did read the stories I linked. The US manufacturers increased their prices because they could. It wasn't like US steel and other good stayed at the same pre-tariff prices. The prices were raised because the effective price of the competition was manipulated by the tariffs.

Originally Posted by 02SE
I don't have to buy Chinese manufactured goods if I don't want to.
 
That depends on the individuals running a business. Some business owners see the benefit of operating entirely in the Country in which they live. When I owned my business, one of my key selling points was that the products I sold, were made in the USA. That was also important to most of my customers.

Of course punitive business tax rates until recently has made that a more difficult proposition for business owners.
 
I don't claim to know or understand Tariffs fully, but I do wonder, why has the American standard of living gone down so much for the middle class? I always hear stories of the automotive workers here in the 50s, where a father could support his children and stay-at-home mom on a blue collar automotive job. It's easy for me to assume that replacing those jobs with off-shore slave labor caused the hardship of blue collar workers today, but I am no expert on global economy.

The other thing is America has gotten worse wealth gap over the decades and China is getting a wealthier middle class. What is going on? I don't think telling people to be a programmer, engineer, or doctor is a viable solution for the general population. To me, tariffs seem like an effort to improve the blue collar chances of financial success, by retrieving jobs. But I don't know if it will work in a global competitive market. But just because it hurts some companies now, which I acknowledge, doesn't mean it is a bad thing in a longer run. I am not convinced either way.
 
Originally Posted by 02SE
That depends on the individuals running a business. Some business owners see the benefit of operating entirely in the Country in which they live. When I owned my business, one of my key selling points was that the products I sold, were made in the USA. That was also important to most of my customers.

Of course punitive business tax rates until recently has made that a more difficult proposition for business owners.

The problem is that isn't the majority of corporations out there and certainly not the heavy weights that have to pay out dividends every quarter.
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted by hatt
We haven't seen your win for us play out. The good paying jobs left and were replaced with low wages dilapidated buildings, and vacant lots.


^^^^^^^
Yeah... Look at Detroit, Philadelphia etc etc..... Awesome places.... Ruined by economic decisions in the past 6 decades... And in addition to this... Who typically governs these failed local places?? Yeah. Awesome.
 
If they only did that.

You wait. We'll see 5 jobs lost for every job that is claimed to be saved. It won't happen right away, but we'll see it before the 2020 election.

Originally Posted by Kurtatron
I don't claim to know or understand Tariffs fully, but I do wonder, why has the American standard of living gone down so much for the middle class? I always hear stories of the automotive workers here in the 50s, where a father could support his children and stay-at-home mom on a blue collar automotive job. It's easy for me to assume that replacing those jobs with off-shore slave labor caused the hardship of blue collar workers today, but I am no expert on global economy.

The other thing is America has gotten worse wealth gap over the decades and China is getting a wealthier middle class. What is going on? I don't think telling people to be a programmer, engineer, or doctor is a viable solution for the general population. To me, tariffs seem like an effort to improve the blue collar chances of financial success, by retrieving jobs. But I don't know if it will work in a global competitive market. But just because it hurts some companies now, which I acknowledge, doesn't mean it is a bad thing in a longer run. I am not convinced either way.
 
So what have happened to the Laissez-faire type economy that the right wing of political isle held it so dearly over the years!??
 
Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by Bluestream
Originally Posted by Vern_in_IL
It's incredibly stupid of your company to be making these decisions. The Trump Admin and China have yet to finalize a deal... and they will. You make decisions after a deal is struck, not before or you might get screwed!

I came on here asking about investment advice before Trump was elected, nobody knew anything. Certainly I would not be making moves until a deal is struck!

There will be no deal with China. Talk of deals are just to prop up the stock market. They stopped buying UST's a few years ago (thus sterilising US trade deficits) Supply chains are changing and they will be unintended consequences.

Remember US consumer pays the tariffs, not China.

No deal? China is in a panic. They need us a lot more than we need China.


Not really, China plays the long game. MSM may think they are in a panic, but their politicians aren't out every week talking up the stock market. Their politicians dont need to worry about elections. The US is politically divided and they know that. They just need to wait, as the Vietnamese did in the 60's The Chinese can take the pain, they have done it for thousands of years. They can consume the goods themselves if they want to. China also no longer a low cast producer, jobs have not flowed to China for over 10 years. Vietnam, Indonesia and Mexico are cheaper.
 
Originally Posted by Bluestream
Not really, China plays the long game. MSM may think they are in a panic, but their politicians aren't out every week talking up the stock market. Their politicians dont need to worry about elections. The US is politically divided and they know that. They just need to wait, as the Vietnamese did in the 60's The Chinese can take the pain, they have done it for thousands of years. They can consume the goods themselves if they want to. China also no longer a low cast producer, jobs have not flowed to China for over 10 years. Vietnam, Indonesia and Mexico are cheaper.


Exactly. China watches as we slowly cut our own throat. They will wait as we slowly bleed out. Then they will act. They intend on being the next global superpower and, unless there is massive change, that will be realized.
 
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