Hypereutectic Aluminum Cylinder Bores... I remember reading about this a long time ago and it still blows my mind.
Enjoy
https://www.sunnen.com/NewsDetails.aspx?NewsID=11
Ray
Enjoy
https://www.sunnen.com/NewsDetails.aspx?NewsID=11
Ray
Aluminum Cylinders: Still In Awe
- Thread starter RayCJ
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Very interesting. Thanks for the post.
I know a woman with in excess of 400K on an aluminum cylinder BMW motorcycle and has never had rings. The engine has been split to replace cam chain guides, just the guides not the chain. It has also had rod bearings. That is it, 400K sMiles. and (gasp) all on conventional oil, no synthetic.
They just do not wear.
I also had an aluminum bore Briggs and Stratton 11 HP last for 21 years, mowing 3 acres, never even had a spark plug! Used 10W40 and I did clean out the fins on the cylinder every 2 years, I think that made more difference than anything. It was just starting to use oil, I was considering an new engine since the carb butterfly was so worn it would no longer idle, when transmission failed again. No parts since Husqvarna bought Dixon, the deck was so thin I had to reinforce where the bade spindles attached. It was time for a new one. I do not like hydrostatic drives nearly as well as the Dixon friction system. A hydrostat locks the wheel when in the neutral position, the friction neutral was coast. I mark the yard a lot more with hydrostat.
Rod
They just do not wear.
I also had an aluminum bore Briggs and Stratton 11 HP last for 21 years, mowing 3 acres, never even had a spark plug! Used 10W40 and I did clean out the fins on the cylinder every 2 years, I think that made more difference than anything. It was just starting to use oil, I was considering an new engine since the carb butterfly was so worn it would no longer idle, when transmission failed again. No parts since Husqvarna bought Dixon, the deck was so thin I had to reinforce where the bade spindles attached. It was time for a new one. I do not like hydrostatic drives nearly as well as the Dixon friction system. A hydrostat locks the wheel when in the neutral position, the friction neutral was coast. I mark the yard a lot more with hydrostat.
Rod
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The Mustang Shelby Cobra Uses an aluminum block with some sort of surface treatment. ( no liners). I wonder how are things holding up with it.
My old Alusil M60 seems to be holding up well, not as many miles as my other cars but no excessive oil consumption as of yet. Maybe some day I'll run a leakdown test on it.
Dirt bike and ATV cylinders use this. It's commonly called "Nikasil" (nickel-silicon-carbide). I've had to have the bores of a couple of these cylinders from my YZ-250 2-stroke dirt bikes re-surfaced due to wear. So, yes, they do wear.
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
I know a woman with in excess of 400K on an aluminum cylinder BMW motorcycle and has never had rings. The engine has been split to replace cam chain guides, just the guides not the chain. It has also had rod bearings. That is it, 400K sMiles. and (gasp) all on conventional oil, no synthetic.
They just do not wear.
I also had an aluminum bore Briggs and Stratton 11 HP last for 21 years, mowing 3 acres, never even had a spark plug! Used 10W40 and I did clean out the fins on the cylinder every 2 years, I think that made more difference than anything. It was just starting to use oil, I was considering an new engine since the carb butterfly was so worn it would no longer idle, when transmission failed again. No parts since Husqvarna bought Dixon, the deck was so thin I had to reinforce where the bade spindles attached. It was time for a new one. I do not like hydrostatic drives nearly as well as the Dixon friction system. A hydrostat locks the wheel when in the neutral position, the friction neutral was coast. I mark the yard a lot more with hydrostat.
Rod
That's encouraging to hear your 11 HP aluminum bore Briggs & Stratton engine lasted that long. I have a Briggs & Stratton 5500 Watt generator with the 342 CI aluminum bore engine and I'm a bit concerned with it's longevity. I'm using the Briggs & Stratton synthetic 5W-30 oil, I got it for $4.30/qt. I did 3 short run changes to get the "glitter" out. I just did another OC after 20 hours and there was no glitter in the oil. Though there was A very faint streak in the oil. I saw no more metal as seen previously. I think I'll keep the OC to around 20-25 run hours instead of 50 max that's in the owner's manual. I'll also keep using a synthetic oil, not the B&S oil as that's now around $14/qt
. It runs really great, makes clean power and is fairly "economical" for it's size. I'd like to keep it for a long time. I exercise it with a 3,000 watt balanced load every 3 months for an hour.
Whimsey
I know a woman with in excess of 400K on an aluminum cylinder BMW motorcycle and has never had rings. The engine has been split to replace cam chain guides, just the guides not the chain. It has also had rod bearings. That is it, 400K sMiles. and (gasp) all on conventional oil, no synthetic.
They just do not wear.
I also had an aluminum bore Briggs and Stratton 11 HP last for 21 years, mowing 3 acres, never even had a spark plug! Used 10W40 and I did clean out the fins on the cylinder every 2 years, I think that made more difference than anything. It was just starting to use oil, I was considering an new engine since the carb butterfly was so worn it would no longer idle, when transmission failed again. No parts since Husqvarna bought Dixon, the deck was so thin I had to reinforce where the bade spindles attached. It was time for a new one. I do not like hydrostatic drives nearly as well as the Dixon friction system. A hydrostat locks the wheel when in the neutral position, the friction neutral was coast. I mark the yard a lot more with hydrostat.
Rod
That's encouraging to hear your 11 HP aluminum bore Briggs & Stratton engine lasted that long. I have a Briggs & Stratton 5500 Watt generator with the 342 CI aluminum bore engine and I'm a bit concerned with it's longevity. I'm using the Briggs & Stratton synthetic 5W-30 oil, I got it for $4.30/qt. I did 3 short run changes to get the "glitter" out. I just did another OC after 20 hours and there was no glitter in the oil. Though there was A very faint streak in the oil. I saw no more metal as seen previously. I think I'll keep the OC to around 20-25 run hours instead of 50 max that's in the owner's manual. I'll also keep using a synthetic oil, not the B&S oil as that's now around $14/qt
Whimsey
It's sort of like diamond bonded saw blades or wheels, the hard particle is held by a softer matrix underneath. That's why inexperienced people chew up diamond blades by using too much pressure and tearing out the bond rather than let the diamonds cut. Aluminum oxide, sapphire, can be a much harder wear layer than silicon by anodizing aluminum. Cast iron though is not only wear resistant but very stable. Machine tools, quality lathes and mills, use cast iron for the beds and structure not aluminum.
Originally Posted by kschachn
My old Alusil M60 seems to be holding up well,
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
The Mustang Shelby Cobra Uses an aluminum block with some sort of surface treatment. ( no liners). I wonder how are things holding up with it.
Ford Mustangs & Nissan GTRs use the spray tans (Weustite Fe/FeO). Plasma transferred wire arc (PTWA) thermal spraying. Awesome durability. BMW has gotten away from using Alusil these days as turbochargers took over their line. It would save some weight if PTWA was used in more engines.
My old Alusil M60 seems to be holding up well,
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
The Mustang Shelby Cobra Uses an aluminum block with some sort of surface treatment. ( no liners). I wonder how are things holding up with it.
Ford Mustangs & Nissan GTRs use the spray tans (Weustite Fe/FeO). Plasma transferred wire arc (PTWA) thermal spraying. Awesome durability. BMW has gotten away from using Alusil these days as turbochargers took over their line. It would save some weight if PTWA was used in more engines.
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Thanks for posting. I knew of the Vega but thought they had scrapped this idea because it wasn't possible.
Never had one , but I remember the Vega .
Seem to remember the problems were tied in to over heating . Were they caused by over heating ?
Seem to remember the problems were tied in to over heating . Were they caused by over heating ?
The Acura implementation for aluminum cylinder liners was not so good. Acura MDX switched in 2010 from Iron to Aluminum Silicone liners and oil burning problems happened. Non iron cylinders if done right can be good but some are not done right.
Originally Posted by goodtimes
It's sort of like diamond bonded saw blades or wheels, the hard particle is held by a softer matrix underneath. That's why inexperienced people chew up diamond blades by using too much pressure and tearing out the bond rather than let the diamonds cut. Aluminum oxide, sapphire, can be a much harder wear layer than silicon by anodizing aluminum. Cast iron though is not only wear resistant but very stable. Machine tools, quality lathes and mills, use cast iron for the beds and structure not aluminum.
Interesting, my Dad has a concrete saw and the blade lasted forever, while we killed masonry grinder blades a lot faster. I used to think it was because of the water cooling, but we stopped using that as much and the blades still lasted a long time. It's a Stihl TS460: it's so heavy and powerful that it gets treated with a lot more respect than the grinders.
It's sort of like diamond bonded saw blades or wheels, the hard particle is held by a softer matrix underneath. That's why inexperienced people chew up diamond blades by using too much pressure and tearing out the bond rather than let the diamonds cut. Aluminum oxide, sapphire, can be a much harder wear layer than silicon by anodizing aluminum. Cast iron though is not only wear resistant but very stable. Machine tools, quality lathes and mills, use cast iron for the beds and structure not aluminum.
Interesting, my Dad has a concrete saw and the blade lasted forever, while we killed masonry grinder blades a lot faster. I used to think it was because of the water cooling, but we stopped using that as much and the blades still lasted a long time. It's a Stihl TS460: it's so heavy and powerful that it gets treated with a lot more respect than the grinders.
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Originally Posted by WyrTwister
Seem to remember the problems were tied in to over heating . Were they caused by over heating ?
No. Although they did overheat due to inadequate cooling, the issue with the aluminum block was due to improper manufacturing and finishing. It wasn't what killed the Vega despite reports to the contrary, as the problem was corrected early in production.
Seem to remember the problems were tied in to over heating . Were they caused by over heating ?
No. Although they did overheat due to inadequate cooling, the issue with the aluminum block was due to improper manufacturing and finishing. It wasn't what killed the Vega despite reports to the contrary, as the problem was corrected early in production.
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
Never had one , but I remember the Vega .
Seem to remember the problems were tied in to over heating . Were they caused by over heating ?
Re Vega.
Antifreeze at the time was not good with aluminum. You needed to change every year, and 60% distilled water was better. You still had to watch radiator for plugging, since it was just barely large enough. If the hot light came on it was too late. Adding a temp gage and paying attention was a better solution. If you kept on top of cooling system condition they would last a while. I really only know of one that never overheated, and it was still running at about 80K miles and not burning oil. There were some steel sleeves that you could put in when you rebuilt one. You had to change pistons, oe was iron plated. You still had [censored] carburetor, [censored] transmissions, weak rear end and skinny tires, but you did not have to check the gas and add oil anymore. It was fixed until it rusted out, which did not take long. The chevette was a better car.
Never had one , but I remember the Vega .
Seem to remember the problems were tied in to over heating . Were they caused by over heating ?
Re Vega.
Antifreeze at the time was not good with aluminum. You needed to change every year, and 60% distilled water was better. You still had to watch radiator for plugging, since it was just barely large enough. If the hot light came on it was too late. Adding a temp gage and paying attention was a better solution. If you kept on top of cooling system condition they would last a while. I really only know of one that never overheated, and it was still running at about 80K miles and not burning oil. There were some steel sleeves that you could put in when you rebuilt one. You had to change pistons, oe was iron plated. You still had [censored] carburetor, [censored] transmissions, weak rear end and skinny tires, but you did not have to check the gas and add oil anymore. It was fixed until it rusted out, which did not take long. The chevette was a better car.
Aluminum has twice the coefficient of thermal expansion as iron does. Aluminum pistons are the norm, so its good to have Al cylinder walls too so the gap is tighter.
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Ford Mustangs & Nissan GTRs use the spray tans (Weustite Fe/FeO). Plasma transferred wire arc (PTWA) thermal spraying. Awesome durability. BMW has gotten away from using Alusil these days as turbochargers took over their line. It would save some weight if PTWA was used in more engines.
Looks like BMW has actually jumped on the PTWA bandwagon too with their B-series engines. Also Ford has expanded PTWA to some ecoboost and 5L V8s.
![[Linked Image]](https://bioage.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/17/verpoort.png "[Linked Image]")
Ford Mustangs & Nissan GTRs use the spray tans (Weustite Fe/FeO). Plasma transferred wire arc (PTWA) thermal spraying. Awesome durability. BMW has gotten away from using Alusil these days as turbochargers took over their line. It would save some weight if PTWA was used in more engines.
Looks like BMW has actually jumped on the PTWA bandwagon too with their B-series engines. Also Ford has expanded PTWA to some ecoboost and 5L V8s.
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Originally Posted by PimTac
We have come a long ways since the Vega fiasco.
+1 When i saw the title, Vega was the first thing that popped into my head.
We have come a long ways since the Vega fiasco.
+1 When i saw the title, Vega was the first thing that popped into my head.
There is a difference in alloy bores as in Briggs & Stratton, and nikasil type coatings. On a 2 stroke motorcycle you just replace the piston,even if it has siezed, they just need a clean up. On my BMW motorcycle they run forever....if they start to burn oil, it needs valve guides.
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