New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold.

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Originally Posted by Shannow
The Timken test (and the 4 ball) are valid tests...for what they are testing, and have error bands of the range of 20%...

But they have ZERO relevance for anything to do with engine oil, in your engine...could you please tell me which part of your engine looks like the Timken test apparatus ?

They, and the people pushing them ARE fraudulent in their claims that the test relates to engine protection...and the gullible are duped every time (even as a young engineer, I was duped...learned more about it, understood what was going on and how it's meangless to my engine, then started to see how charlatans could use it to appear convincing).

Struggling to see what Tesla has to do in the context here...you have polyphase AC...Tesla's work is everywhere.


its not about replicating the conditions inside your engine and all of its different contact points and pressures
its a simplified test for lubricity
one of the goals of having that lubricant in your engine

and the Tesla example was about how talented inventors arent the best businessmen.. if you actually read what I wrote
 
A simplified test that does not replicate anything in your engine only tells you how things do...in that simplified test...not how your engine wears...surely you can see the difference.

Timken is a reputable manufacturer, but if their test has nothing to do with any behaviour in engines, it means nothing.

Why does the entire industry use the sequence IVA wear test for wear when a one armed bandit could do it for cents in the dollar ?
 
I'd love to see an IVR with Motorkote + whatever oils vs some brand
but how exactly are you to carry around and engine and disassemble and measure for every oil sample mixture
as a demo for people?
not to mention having to replace the cam for each sample

just as you dont use an IVR for determining viscosity of said lubricant
you dont use IVR for determining lubricity

you must be able to tell the difference between the two tests right?
each has its place

and to say it means "nothing" is unscientific
 
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The industry (except for a couple of blenders and snake oil salesman) consider that test, and the four ball (and certainly 540Rat and his silly assertions) has no relevance to the certification of engine oils.

Surely, if they could gain anything in terms of meeting the life cycle objectives of the engines that they are selling, then either the one armed bandit or the four ball would be part of the SAE/API/ACEA sequencing. Rather than the very expensive to run Sequence IVA.

How's that for scientific ?

If it worked, why all the palaver with the expensive tests ?

As to how you are supposed to carry something around to show people something...if you are showing them something that's zero relevance to their cost of ownership in terms of engine life, claiming that it IS representative or relevant, and all it effectively does is lighten their wallet then that's charlatanism ...not "science".

What's worse than those who are duped by the machines are the "want to believers", who refuse to understand why it's not representative...they want to be convinced that they are doing the right thing,(even when you point out the SAE statements for what they declare them relevant for...and the repeatability/reproducibility...that's science..they reject it for "feeling" like science)..then set out to convince more people to be duped...just like those that try to jam "Awaken" under my door, or sell their message to my kids...it's the same mental process.

Those who claim that their fairground tests prove anything related to engine oil are the lowest of the low, especially if they are the ones AT the fairground duping the gullible.

I was commissioning an MDF factory back in the '90s, when one of the snake oil companies came to town to convince the purchasing department that their one armed bandit proved how inferior their stock grease actually was...I grabbed a tube of the high end rolling press grease, and they cried foul, and that it wasn't representative of "normal" product...
 
Re snake oil...here's an oldie but a goodie...

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1374934/Re:_Royal_Purple_says_this_abo

Originally Posted by ZZman
From their FAQ section

The Sequence IVA test is an industry bench test that is used to test oils for API licensing purposes. Some portray this as a sound methodology for predicting wear protection. We believe the ASTM D-2782 Timken Load Test is a better methodology for predicting wear because the Timken test actually measures a lubricant�s film strength (its ability withstand the effects of load, speed and temperature without breaking down and allowing metal to metal contact). Royal Purple has dramatically higher film strength versus competing lubricants. For instance, Royal Purple has nearly 6 times the film strength of Castrol Edge�.

� Royal Purple film strength = 113,839 psi
� Castrol Edge� film strength = 18,979 psi



Like I said...Charlatans...

Re your posit re liking to see how your additive of choice would perform on the IVR test...if that sort of "performance" was necessary, then that additive would already be in the oils, and Sequence IVa wouldn't be used to represent engine wear.

Simple...eh ???
 
You seem irked by that fact reality may not conform to your belief set
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.
You can make something as complicated as you want but many problems are dependent on the most significant factor.
Using derrogatory names for an improperly conducted Timken test .. well many tests can be improperly conducted and skew data
bottom line so if you dont want to try it then simple.. DONT
 
Originally Posted by insanecoder
Using derrogatory names for an improperly conducted Timken test .. well many tests can be improperly conducted and skew data
bottom line so if you dont want to try it then simple.. DONT

Where do we find the results of a properly conducted test on motor oils?
 
Originally Posted by insanecoder
You seem irked by that fact reality may not conform to your belief set
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.
You can make something as complicated as you want but many problems are dependent on the most significant factor.
Using derrogatory names for an improperly conducted Timken test .. well many tests can be improperly conducted and skew data
bottom line so if you dont want to try it then simple.. DONT


What, now you're bent because of a derogatory name for a test ?

A name that reflects how charlatans use it to lighten the wallets of schmucks who don't know any better, and what the test IS ACTUALLY FOR ???

If the Oil industry and OEMs thought that there was ALNY place for this cheap test to take the place for their expensive industry standard test, do you not thing they'd be all over it like white on rice ?

It WOULD be the standard if it was cheap and meaningful...surely you can see that.

If the API and the OEMs don't see it's relevance or utility in the evaluation of engine oils...the case FOR it being at all useful is tenuous at best.

Note my previous comments, I've had first hand industry experience of sales people using these tests in the field to try to sway entire purchasing departments...fortunately in one case, the purchasing people called the ENGINEERING people (me) to confirm the one armed bandit's utility in their decision making process.
 
Originally Posted by insanecoder
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.

What precisely does this portable simple physics experiment have to do with what actually happens in an internal combustion engine?
 
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by insanecoder
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.

What precisely does this portable simple physics experiment have to do with what actually happens in an internal combustion engine?


Exactly...why on earth do you need to know how your engine oil would perform in a differential ?

A differential has absolutely nothing to do with engine wear.

The Timken test is for hypoid, EP style applications, and I stall stand by my statement that those who use Timken, 4 ball and the like to "prove" the quality of their engine oil are charlatans
 
Originally Posted by insanecoder
I've just got my order in.. my bottle is coming this week
so I plan to blackstone a before-after and over several iterations to see what its doing to be sure
so I'm not exactly putting faith into it either I want to see results in terms of
whether I am getting any efficiency gains at all which should show in RPM, operational temperature, vibration
as far as the most important goal (for me) is engine life so I want to see a baseline blackstone and then look @ with motorkote in over time
but I have to say the fear mongering based on nothing but negative belief is wholly unscientific and keeps people from maybe getting a product which may benefit their engine investment


If you are sending in a VOA remark on the analysis sheet that you want a test for Chlorine. A UOA without a VOA of both the PCMO AND the additive is useless.
 
1st red flag: Beware the real value of any product that proclaims "[Country of your nationality]'s Number 1 [anything]".
Remember Dura Lube? ...another haloalkane snake oil of a different brand
 
Originally Posted by insanecoder


...its not about replicating the conditions inside your engine and all of its different contact points and pressures
its a simplified test for lubricity
one of the goals of having that lubricant in your engine

and the Tesla example was about how talented inventors arent the best businessmen.. if you actually read what I wrote


What is your definition of lubricity and how it relates to wear and friction modification?

There ARE chemists here on the board that DO know the effects of chemical components found in OTC additives and the effects of this chemistry on engine components.
 
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http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a202145.pdf

Interesting paper on the military testing a bunch of gear and engine oils on a variety of test machines including the Timken.

Reading it should reinforce why this test, 4 ball etc. do NOT give results representing what goes on in engines...the tests don't even rank the lubes themselves in the same order.
 
Just a thought, If Motorkote does have Chlorine Parrafins in their addtive and you do a oil analysis with a TAN report would that indicate if there is corrosion going on in the engine?
 
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