E-15 fuel in approval stages

[Nyogtha]

And the activation energy required for that reaction?

Plus how much uncombusted acetic acid makes it intact to the outlet of the catalytic converter?

 

[Shannow]

High temperature combustion creates all sorts of species...

Hydrocarbons that are pure carbon and hydrogen don't JUST do water and CO2, they create CO, NOx of various species, and HC...things that shouldn't, but due to high temperature equilibrium, they are made and they exist.

Alcohols create aldehydes and the like, so will also be creating Acetic Acid. It will be anhydrous, and gaseous, so not much water to make it a problem (98% sulfuric lives in carbon steel tanks...no water to make it exceptionally corrosive, but don't get on your skin).

Doubt it would make it past the converter, or be much of a problem after shutdown.

Is a problem in underground tanks where acetobacteria eat the ethanol, create acetic acid (Ethanoic Acid), and start destructing things.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted by Rat407
Originally Posted by Linctex
I have done a TON of ethanol fuel research over the years (mostly in the mid 80's)

One thing concerns me:
Acetic acid in the exhaust stream

Yes, it is true - ask any advanced chemist. Acetic acid (found in vinegar) is developed when ethyl alcohol burns.

What else has acetic acid? SILICONE SEALER - the stuff that say right on the tube "will harm oxygen sensors"!

I can only deduce that Ethyl Alcohol as a fuel, in high concentrations, will eventually kill your oxygen sensors.


I wonder how long it takes to kill the O2 sensors? Been running E85 for two years now in my non FF 2002 Silverado with no issues, Just a nice clean tailpipe.



I run E20 in an old service van (2006 Savana 3500 6.0) not spec'd for flex fuel. It runs super smooth. Been running it for as long as it's been available here. Never a hiccup and super smooth and happy...

 

[Delta]

I honestly don't see the big problem actually. I've stored 93 E10 for almost a year (treated) and it was still good. I've run up to a E30 blend on the GTI and it actually performs well. The one Sheetz store has an E15 pump and I use it in the S10 which is not FF rated; no problems as of yet*. It's typically $.10-$.15 cheaper per gallon. The Camry is rated up to E15 so when I get the chance I run it.


* Not saying problems won't happen with both, but I've been doing this for a while...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Shouldn't be an issue at all.


Whats you basis for this comment?

My O.M. states NOT to use E15 It also state if I use E15 and the engine is damaged I'm on the hook.

I guess its NOT an Issue if you don't pump it,




OEM's employ CYA for all sorts of reasons. For example they may have simply not tested E15 because surprise, E15 wasn't being sold at the pumps. Consequently their legal team chose that particular verbiage in your OM. If E15 truly is a problem then the manufacturer will make a statement if the EPA signs off on E15. I suspect they'll say it's fine.

The one problem with really high concentrations of ethanol has to do with fueling. The fuel maps, fuel pumps and injectors just can't keep up with the fueling requirements when using ethanol because of its low BTU compared to petrol. That will cause problems.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Taking the lead out had a purpose at least. Ethanol fuels have dubious benefits at best. Not just because of the fuel itself, but every shady and corrupt thing that goes into its making.


Not true. Ethanol, the chosen replacement for MTBE, is an oxygenate which helps cities meet their air quality requirements under the Clean Air Act. If you don't live in a city which has this issue you wouldn't understand.

 

[DweezilAZ]

Originally Posted by user52165
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by JayhawkRoy
There is no requirement for anyone to use the stuff. This merely allows for year round sales of E15. In some locations, E15 is available for nine months a year, anyway. All other ethanol variations (including E0) will still be available.

Not always, where oxygenated fuel is mandated you cannot purchase E0.


Like the entire state of California.

Not so. Here are some if you're interested: https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Taking the lead out had a purpose at least. Ethanol fuels have dubious benefits at best. Not just because of the fuel itself, but every shady and corrupt thing that goes into its making.


Not true. Ethanol, the chosen replacement for MTBE, is an oxygenate which helps cities meet their air quality requirements under the Clean Air Act. If you don't live in a city which has this issue you wouldn't understand.



MTBE is also nice once it enters the water table.

 

[Nyogtha]

However the RFS has pushed ethanol use in gasoline and the whole banking & trading RINS system way, way beyond use of oxygenates in gasoline in air quality non-attainment areas.

 

[Jarlaxle]

If it's available and cheaper than E10, I'll use it in my Vic. That car is a FFV, it will be fine.

 

[dogememe]

Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
If it's available and cheaper than E10, I'll use it in my Vic. That car is a FFV, it will be fine.

What happens if you put E15 in a non flex fuel vehicle?

 

[E365]

Plenty of modern non-flex fuel vehicles are approved for E15. My 2015 Focus EcoBoost is.

 

[E365]

I've been using ethanol blended gas almost exclusively for over 20 years. (It was mandated in 1997 here in Minnesota). When can I expect all these issues ethanol is claimed to cause? At the 30 year point? 40 years?

I've still NEVER had an ethanol issue in dozens of engines I've owned/used. Cars, motorcycles, tractors, boats, mowers, snowblowers, etc...

 

[TiredTrucker]

I use a broad range of ethanol blends. My wife's 2006 Cadillac (non-flex), it does ok on E15, but the nickel price difference doesn't make it worth it compared to E10. So that car gets E10. My 2015 Silverado 2500 has been on E85 for over a year now. It does very well on it and the price spread makes it very cost effective. At various times deepening on the price spreads, I have used E20, E30, and E50.

While E0 may be limited in many areas, even with E15 being available year round will not negate E10 being still available for those that can't or don't want to use E15. In the heart of corn country and surrounded by 46 ethanol plants, ethanol free fuel is readily available all around me, 365 a year.

And the ethanol concentration is usually a few points lower than what it says. For instance E10 usually will test at E7 or E8. Just like E15 typically will test at E12-E13. They rarely even blend up to the limit for fear they will go over. If random testing shows the ethanol level even 1 pt higher than the pump label, there is a fine involved.