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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4892899
10/10/18 11:54 AM
10/10/18 11:54 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Every time you explain flying, I feel like maybe nuclear physics would be an easier hobby take up.

When I was a kid, and my elders would talk about it, I assumed it sounded complex because I was a kid. As I got older, it was just, "Nope. It's just really really complicated."



I think that flying big airplanes, or fighters, is complicated because you’re extracting very high performance out of the machines while maintaining good safety. You’re taking off, or landing, at close to the limits of what the machine can do.

That’s not a simple matter.

It’s my hope that explaining flying here on BITOG makes it more accessible- easier to understand.

If I’m failing in that, please ask questions, I’ll be glad to clear up anything that I’ve left lingering.

Cheers,
Astro



Please don't mistake my statement to mean that I'm not understanding what you're saying. I definitely am. I'm just left with my mind a little blown how much data and information one must know and process in order to perform the tasks of flying.

My grandfather and my great-uncles passed away when I was young. My father when I still a teenager. They never really talked directly to me as far as the specific operations of flight. I've learned that a big part of that was because they were all military pilots in war and really didn't like to go back there unless it was between other veterans. My father was the most silent of all them because it was Vietnam, and I've learned people just don't like talking about 'Nam.

I have heard a lot of war stories, especially from the air war over Europe, but I've always wondered what it was really like for them in those cockpits. The things you post, especially your experiences in military service really help in imagining that. It definitely reinforces my perspective that they, and all warriors of the sky are really something else entirely.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4893022
10/10/18 01:41 PM
10/10/18 01:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,126
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,126
Virginia Beach
You know, I wonder what it was like for them, too...

In World War II, bomber crews in the 8th AF generally didn’t live for 25 missions, when they could rotate home.

I think flying was far simpler then. You had standard numbers for various speeds in an airplane like a B-17 or B-24: stall, liftoff, max, landing, etc. Several reasons, I think, for that...the bomb load was a smaller percentage of the airplane weight, the field was quite long in relation to the aircraft landing performance, and safety of operations wasn’t really as important is it is now...

The manuals for the WW II fighters (I have a couple, including a personal favorite, the F-4U Corsair) were so simple. My F-14 Manual is (yes, I still have it) three inches thick...and it doesn’t include the inch thick set of performance charts...or the two inch thick classified weapon system manual... the 757/767 manual that I use every day is 2,673 pages long...

Those guys in WW II had a fatality every 20 or so missions.

Vietnam wasn’t a whole lot better, at least, from what I’ve read about it, perhaps one in a hundred.

The USN now flies fighters with a mishap rate of less than 1 in 100,000 hours.

Airlines operate with a mishap rate of less than 1 in 10,000,000.

Through engineering improvements, complexity and risk analysis, we’ve gotten better. But we sure have made flying harder.

I hope to build an RV-8 one day, and look forward to the simplicity of flying an airplane like that...one where control feel is mechanical, and I can tell what the airplane is doing... where I feel like I’m flying, not managing risk through decision-making, analysis, and balancing the use of automation.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4893330
10/10/18 06:37 PM
10/10/18 06:37 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
So I have heard. I believe the exact statistic was that 6 out of 10 RAF airmen never came back. Better chance of dying than coming home.

For the US airmen it was a lot better as the war went on, but it was more frequent for my grandfather to have his plane shot than not. More like an aerial fistfight than modern warfare.

I've wanted to build an RV-8 since I was 15. Don't know what powerplant I would want today, but I was very impressed with the rotary engined RV-8's. Either way, it would be the pleasure of flying and being able to say, "Yup. I built it myself.". Yeah, I could do that.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4900106
10/19/18 06:31 AM
10/19/18 06:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,689
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,689
Jupiter, Florida


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4900202
10/19/18 09:05 AM
10/19/18 09:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,273
Nashville, TN via Memphis
john_pifer Offline
john_pifer  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,273
Nashville, TN via Memphis
I think it's nuts that they thought it was an acceptable risk to take a Falcon flying when the guy in the left seat didn't even have the right endorsement to be PIC in that A/C, and the guy in the right seat didn't have an endorsement AT ALL to fly that A/C type. I'd be afraid to lose my license and never get to fly an airplane again, at minimum.

And carrying passengers, risking their lives, too? Just crazy.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4900851
10/20/18 02:25 AM
10/20/18 02:25 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
All three engines at full power, but reverser only on center engine? Does that mean center was braking, but outboards were forcing the plane ahead?


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4901105
10/20/18 10:37 AM
10/20/18 10:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,273
Nashville, TN via Memphis
john_pifer Offline
john_pifer  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,273
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Also weird that no. 2 & 3 fire handles were pulled.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4901158
10/20/18 12:02 PM
10/20/18 12:02 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Attempt to quench those engines?


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4901434
10/20/18 06:34 PM
10/20/18 06:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,273
Nashville, TN via Memphis
john_pifer Offline
john_pifer  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,273
Nashville, TN via Memphis
And how were #2 & 3 still running with the fire handles pulled? I thought it was a standard design function across OEMs for the fire handle being pulled to close the fuel & hydraulic SOVs.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: DoubleWasp] #4901440
10/20/18 06:40 PM
10/20/18 06:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 310
Greenville SC
George Bynum Offline OP
George Bynum  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 310
Greenville SC
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
All three engines at full power, but reverser only on center engine? Does that mean center was braking, but outboards were forcing the plane ahead?
That's my take. Your question doesn't make it obvious, but only the center has thrust reversing equipment.

Considering the lack of qualification by the pilot on this aircraft, and friends who tell me some planes have reversing capability on all engines, my guess is that he assumed all 3 engines were used to slow ... and 2 in normal mode WAY overcame 1 trying to slow.

It is too bad that we'll never know why he did what he did.

Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4901573
10/20/18 09:43 PM
10/20/18 09:43 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

Ok, so allow me to make an uneducated guess here:

They stick the landing real nice. Pilot goes for reverser, deploys it. He immediately does what he would on a traditional jet, and nails all 3 engines to full thrust. Plane rockets on. Maybe he flips out and thinks engines are out of control? Panics and tries throwing fire handles to stop the "runaway" engines? Maybe mistakes the fire handles for being reverser handles in the melee?

Heck. No way to even guess it.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: DoubleWasp] #4905426
10/25/18 05:44 AM
10/25/18 05:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,126
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,126
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

Ok, so allow me to make an uneducated guess here:

They stick the landing real nice. Pilot goes for reverser, deploys it. He immediately does what he would on a traditional jet, and nails all 3 engines to full thrust. Plane rockets on. Maybe he flips out and thinks engines are out of control? Panics and tries throwing fire handles to stop the "runaway" engines? Maybe mistakes the fire handles for being reverser handles in the melee?

Heck. No way to even guess it.


Sounds plausible...

But hard to know at this point - I am willing to bet that the NTSB will look at everything and be able to tell. You would be amazed at what clues exist in a crash.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4915289
11/05/18 08:11 AM
11/05/18 08:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,582
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,582
Idaho
Planes are complicated. They don't seem like something to toy with.

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