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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4887054 10/04/18 09:22 AM
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The flash looks like the port wing scraping the runway.
It's hard to tell if the gear is down or not. I would expect more sparks if it weren't though.

Thanks for the link Cu.

Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4887102 10/04/18 10:49 AM
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Astro14 Offline
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When airliners (or any other high performance jet) run off the end of the runway, it's generally one of two things: landing long or spoilers didn't deploy. Hydroplaning or icy runway can be a cause of runway excursions, but far less than folks think and anyway, clearly not the case here.

Greenville is 7,000' long.

If you're used to flying a GA airplane (and it sounds like the pilots of this Falcon were primarily GA experienced) then that's several times the landing distance of a GA airplane. Super long runway. Or so you get used to thinking.

But for an airplane like this one, it's quite short. You have to get the airplane down, on the runway, weight on wheels/strut switch activated, so that the spoilers deploy and take the airplane's weight off the wings, only then do the brakes become effective. Reversers are an aid, but it's the brakes that stop the airplane. And they have to be in firm contact with the pavement.

You learn to fly on little airplanes, and then look at this "long" runway and think you've got room - but you don't. Very easy to make a critical mistake - float the landing (so the struts don't compress), land long, carry too much speed, or bounce the landing, and you're in deep trouble because effective braking doesn't begin until the landing gear are compressed and spoilers deploy.

I should add that a stabilized approach (on glideslope, on centerline, proper airspeed, proper sinkrate, proper configuration) helps with a good, on target, landing. It's a focus area for my industry, my company, and the FAA. Unstabilized approaches have been a factor in the preponderance of runway excursions - too fast, too high, etc. on approach, and you touchdown too long, especially if you're trying to "grease" it on...

From the speed with which the airplane left the runway - it either touched down way past the "touchdown zone*" or the spoilers weren't armed/deployed. It had far too much speed at the end. The gear were down, the optical illusion of the camera angle makes it look like the airplane is too close to the ground, but that's because the camera is looking up at a hilltop.

I used to land the 757 and the A-320 in Orange County/John Wayne all the time. 5,700' You HAD to be on the ground in the first thousand feet or you were at risk of not stopping. We did it all the time, but we knew exactly what we were up against. I used to fly out of LGA nearly every flight, in the 757 and A-320, only 7,000 with highways at one end and water at the other. Same deal: on the ground in the first 1,500' or we go around. Period. We had a rigorous touchdown zone defined and we put the airplane in that zone.

Never a problem stopping in either place, including when it was wet and/or snowy in LGA, because the airplane was landed properly, in the proper place on the runway. That made stopping uneventful. I am always happy when things are uneventful in my line of work.



* which we define as the first 1/3 of the runway or first 3,000 feet, whichever is shorter. But none of us would use 1,900 feet (the first 1/3) in SNA...that's too far down...


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4887182 10/04/18 12:04 PM
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The latest reports say that it ran off the side of the runway before overshooting it. Not simply a matter of distance, but also one of direction as well.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: DoubleWasp] #4887188 10/04/18 12:06 PM
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Astro14 Offline
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Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
The latest reports say that it ran off the side of the runway before overshooting it. Not simply a matter of distance, but also one of direction as well.


Hm... Any mention of the winds at the time?


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888161 10/05/18 11:17 AM
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CincyDavid Offline
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So, what kind of establishment is the Trophy Club, where the video of the crash came from?!?


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888247 10/05/18 12:41 PM
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None of the articles I read were incredibly detailed. Seems most of them I read are responsible enough to take no position, make no assumptions, and simply state the obvious details, while stating one can read the finer details when the government reports come out.

Whatever happened, it's just sad. Not much forgiveness in flight.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4888282 10/05/18 01:25 PM
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George Bynum Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Astro14
Greenville is 7,000' long.
Official records show 5,393' but I dug into the tech specs on the plane; it can land in less than 2000'. Takeoff would be a little tighter if fully loaded.

Originally Posted by Astro14
From the speed with which the airplane left the runway - it either touched down way past the "touchdown zone*" or the spoilers weren't armed/deployed.
The airport manager was interviewed and said he saw it land out of his window; all looked normal.

I've a friend who has some right seat experience in an Eclipse and Citation. He discussed the different systems of spoiler deployment and use and WONDERS it the wrong thing was done. NON-PROFESSIONAL REPORTS say the plane sounded at full throttle as it exited the runway. Perhaps he thought the clamshell (my term, I don't know the right one) was deployed and throttle had to be advanced to brake? Perhaps something else was wrong and he didn't reach liftoff velocity for a go-around?

I understand that the aircraft was equipped with a flight data recorder. The NTSB should give us a prelim report in a week or 2, I understand.

(My interest; I live just a few miles from the runway and drive the road on which it stopped occasionally. I've friends with light singles and small twins based there with whom I've flown.)

Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4888313 10/05/18 01:53 PM
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Quote
Hm... Any mention of the winds at the time?


https://www.flyingmag.com/dassault-falcon-50-accident-greenville

"Historical weather data gathered from around the time of the accident included light winds from the northeast, overcast skies at 300 feet and visibility of 3 miles in light rain."

Following the link, 050 at 5. They landed RWY 19.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888359 10/05/18 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by George Bynum
Originally Posted by Astro14
Greenville is 7,000' long.
Official records show 5,393' but I dug into the tech specs on the plane; it can land in less than 2000'. Takeoff would be a little tighter if fully loaded.

Originally Posted by Astro14
From the speed with which the airplane left the runway - it either touched down way past the "touchdown zone*" or the spoilers weren't armed/deployed.
The airport manager was interviewed and said he saw it land out of his window; all looked normal.

I've a friend who has some right seat experience in an Eclipse and Citation. He discussed the different systems of spoiler deployment and use and WONDERS it the wrong thing was done. NON-PROFESSIONAL REPORTS say the plane sounded at full throttle as it exited the runway. Perhaps he thought the clamshell (my term, I don't know the right one) was deployed and throttle had to be advanced to brake? Perhaps something else was wrong and he didn't reach liftoff velocity for a go-around?

I understand that the aircraft was equipped with a flight data recorder. The NTSB should give us a prelim report in a week or 2, I understand.

(My interest; I live just a few miles from the runway and drive the road on which it stopped occasionally. I've friends with light singles and small twins based there with whom I've flown.)



Thank you George - I was clearly looking at the wrong airport!

At 5,393 - take everything I said and make it more emphatic. That's not long for a runway operating a jet airplane.

The NTSB will probably give us an update in a few weeks. Full report typically takes a year or so.

The 2,000 foot distance is likely the stopping distance, not the same as landing distance. All landing distance calculations for us are predicated on crossing the threshold at 50 feet, touching down at 1,000 feet down the runway, then a 15% margin on that.

I pulled up the data for Boston runway 27 last night on my way into Boston. All the assumptions are there. Wind, weight, elevation, temp, altimeter, runway slope, flap setting, brake setting.

Using those planning assumptions, and the following conditions: 8KT Headwind, 179,700 lbs weight, temp 19C, Altimeter 29.97, 18 foot landing elevation, flaps 30, with maximum braking and reverse, we could stop a 757 in 3,192 feet. But that is standing on the brakes, with full reverse.

A more normal landing, same conditions, with autobrakes 2, would be a distance of 6,245. So, yes, after careful analysis of conditions and performance, I would've accepted runway 27 if that's what ATC requested.

But I don't know if these pilots performed that kind of analysis...I do...every time...


Tailwind doesn't help...neither does rain...

Last edited by Astro14; 10/05/18 03:09 PM.

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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888362 10/05/18 02:54 PM
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Let me add that we also consider the runway condition, braking action, visibility and type of approach, and ability of the airplane to go around in our performance analysis. Only after all that do I consider the landing to be safe.

Flying isn't as simple as folks would like to think, sometimes...

Here, clipped to my yoke, as we're at FL390 approaching Albany, is the Boston Runway 27 analysis from last night. Lots of it is hard to read, but you can see some of the assumptions that go into the analysis...sorry that BITOG rotated the upload...

Cheers,
Astro

IMG_0278[1108].jpg
Last edited by Astro14; 10/05/18 03:00 PM.

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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888578 10/05/18 07:50 PM
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Every time you explain flying, I feel like maybe nuclear physics would be an easier hobby take up.

When I was a kid, and my elders would talk about it, I assumed it sounded complex because I was a kid. As I got older, it was just, "Nope. It's just really really complicated."


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4890634 10/08/18 07:37 AM
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Where did this flight originate? Europe?
Also, am I reading this correctly in that stopping distances are actually shorter with autobrake off?


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: fdcg27] #4891116 10/08/18 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fdcg27
Where did this flight originate? Europe?
Also, am I reading this correctly in that stopping distances are actually shorter with autobrake off?


That flight originated in SFO. UAL 242.

You are reading the performance analysis correctly. Autobrakes command a programmed deceleration rate. 1 is pretty mild, and in fact, with reverse engaged, the airplane slows more quickly than the programmed rate, so no actual braking is applied when using reverse and 1.

While you might think that "Max" autobrakes is maximum braking, it isn't. "Max" is the maximum deceleration rate that the autobrakes are programmed to produce.

Maximum manual braking (standing on the pedals, which is limited only by anti-lock) on a dry runway exceeds that programmed deceleration rate of autobrakes.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: DoubleWasp] #4892720 10/10/18 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Every time you explain flying, I feel like maybe nuclear physics would be an easier hobby take up.

When I was a kid, and my elders would talk about it, I assumed it sounded complex because I was a kid. As I got older, it was just, "Nope. It's just really really complicated."



I think that flying big airplanes, or fighters, is complicated because you’re extracting very high performance out of the machines while maintaining good safety. You’re taking off, or landing, at close to the limits of what the machine can do.

That’s not a simple matter.

It’s my hope that explaining flying here on BITOG makes it more accessible- easier to understand.

If I’m failing in that, please ask questions, I’ll be glad to clear up anything that I’ve left lingering.

Cheers,
Astro


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4892784 10/10/18 10:50 AM
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Astro you are a champ.
I did some single engine piston time years ago. Always liked and followed aviation stuff. You make it so clear and 'right down the center line' (no bull).

Thank You

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