Recent Topics
195/65R Yokohama Avid Ascend GT
by Marco620. 06/19/19 01:01 AM
New frontier 4.0 V6
by passgas55. 06/19/19 12:14 AM
Top 5 reliable, affordable car makers?
by Elkins45. 06/18/19 10:16 PM
Rear positive camber
by wing0. 06/18/19 09:44 PM
Odd vehicle / tags on I-70
by Marco620. 06/18/19 09:43 PM
Repainted bumper cover vs OEM
by DTS419. 06/18/19 09:37 PM
Sweet Ice Tea
by BlueOvalFitter. 06/18/19 09:30 PM
17 F150 6R80 ATF oil change
by MagneticFX. 06/18/19 08:49 PM
Best solution for crack in vinyl seat
by paulri. 06/18/19 07:50 PM
Lower Tier Interstate batteries @ Costco?
by Onetor. 06/18/19 07:46 PM
75W90 suggestions?
by WillB. 06/18/19 07:37 PM
Big R - Mag1 Synthetic $12.99
by RamFan. 06/18/19 07:30 PM
No title after 2.5 months?
by Shaman. 06/18/19 07:18 PM
Downgrade Windows 10?
by Robster. 06/18/19 07:17 PM
AC PF2257G Any good?
by Oldtom. 06/18/19 06:48 PM
New tire time...225/55/19, all seasons...
by Ws6. 06/18/19 06:48 PM
Newest Members
DTS419, chakir, 9J460, Petethedog, RenewableLubeBen
68429 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
22 registered members (92saturnsl2, 4WD, 53' Stude, Char Baby, BlakeB, 4 invisible), 573 guests, and 25 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics290,645
Posts4,990,129
Members68,429
Most Online2,967
Mar 10th, 2019
Donate to BITOG
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4887054
10/04/18 09:22 AM
10/04/18 09:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,086
Ontario Canada
cjcride Offline
cjcride  Offline

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,086
Ontario Canada
The flash looks like the port wing scraping the runway.
It's hard to tell if the gear is down or not. I would expect more sparks if it weren't though.

Thanks for the link Cu.

Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4887102
10/04/18 10:49 AM
10/04/18 10:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
When airliners (or any other high performance jet) run off the end of the runway, it's generally one of two things: landing long or spoilers didn't deploy. Hydroplaning or icy runway can be a cause of runway excursions, but far less than folks think and anyway, clearly not the case here.

Greenville is 7,000' long.

If you're used to flying a GA airplane (and it sounds like the pilots of this Falcon were primarily GA experienced) then that's several times the landing distance of a GA airplane. Super long runway. Or so you get used to thinking.

But for an airplane like this one, it's quite short. You have to get the airplane down, on the runway, weight on wheels/strut switch activated, so that the spoilers deploy and take the airplane's weight off the wings, only then do the brakes become effective. Reversers are an aid, but it's the brakes that stop the airplane. And they have to be in firm contact with the pavement.

You learn to fly on little airplanes, and then look at this "long" runway and think you've got room - but you don't. Very easy to make a critical mistake - float the landing (so the struts don't compress), land long, carry too much speed, or bounce the landing, and you're in deep trouble because effective braking doesn't begin until the landing gear are compressed and spoilers deploy.

I should add that a stabilized approach (on glideslope, on centerline, proper airspeed, proper sinkrate, proper configuration) helps with a good, on target, landing. It's a focus area for my industry, my company, and the FAA. Unstabilized approaches have been a factor in the preponderance of runway excursions - too fast, too high, etc. on approach, and you touchdown too long, especially if you're trying to "grease" it on...

From the speed with which the airplane left the runway - it either touched down way past the "touchdown zone*" or the spoilers weren't armed/deployed. It had far too much speed at the end. The gear were down, the optical illusion of the camera angle makes it look like the airplane is too close to the ground, but that's because the camera is looking up at a hilltop.

I used to land the 757 and the A-320 in Orange County/John Wayne all the time. 5,700' You HAD to be on the ground in the first thousand feet or you were at risk of not stopping. We did it all the time, but we knew exactly what we were up against. I used to fly out of LGA nearly every flight, in the 757 and A-320, only 7,000 with highways at one end and water at the other. Same deal: on the ground in the first 1,500' or we go around. Period. We had a rigorous touchdown zone defined and we put the airplane in that zone.

Never a problem stopping in either place, including when it was wet and/or snowy in LGA, because the airplane was landed properly, in the proper place on the runway. That made stopping uneventful. I am always happy when things are uneventful in my line of work.



* which we define as the first 1/3 of the runway or first 3,000 feet, whichever is shorter. But none of us would use 1,900 feet (the first 1/3) in SNA...that's too far down...


32 Packard 15W40
01 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 Edge
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4887182
10/04/18 12:04 PM
10/04/18 12:04 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,649
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,649
Fort Lauderdale, FL
The latest reports say that it ran off the side of the runway before overshooting it. Not simply a matter of distance, but also one of direction as well.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: DoubleWasp] #4887188
10/04/18 12:06 PM
10/04/18 12:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
The latest reports say that it ran off the side of the runway before overshooting it. Not simply a matter of distance, but also one of direction as well.


Hm... Any mention of the winds at the time?


32 Packard 15W40
01 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 Edge
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888161
10/05/18 11:17 AM
10/05/18 11:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 827
Cincinnati, OH USA
CincyDavid Offline
CincyDavid  Offline

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 827
Cincinnati, OH USA
So, what kind of establishment is the Trophy Club, where the video of the crash came from?!?


06 Kia Sportage EX greenish gold(ugliest color ever)
11 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited HEMI Mineral Gray
14 Honda Accord LX metallic black
17 VW Jetta SE black
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888247
10/05/18 12:41 PM
10/05/18 12:41 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,649
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,649
Fort Lauderdale, FL
None of the articles I read were incredibly detailed. Seems most of them I read are responsible enough to take no position, make no assumptions, and simply state the obvious details, while stating one can read the finer details when the government reports come out.

Whatever happened, it's just sad. Not much forgiveness in flight.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4888282
10/05/18 01:25 PM
10/05/18 01:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 330
Greenville SC
George Bynum Offline OP
George Bynum  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 330
Greenville SC
Originally Posted by Astro14
Greenville is 7,000' long.
Official records show 5,393' but I dug into the tech specs on the plane; it can land in less than 2000'. Takeoff would be a little tighter if fully loaded.

Originally Posted by Astro14
From the speed with which the airplane left the runway - it either touched down way past the "touchdown zone*" or the spoilers weren't armed/deployed.
The airport manager was interviewed and said he saw it land out of his window; all looked normal.

I've a friend who has some right seat experience in an Eclipse and Citation. He discussed the different systems of spoiler deployment and use and WONDERS it the wrong thing was done. NON-PROFESSIONAL REPORTS say the plane sounded at full throttle as it exited the runway. Perhaps he thought the clamshell (my term, I don't know the right one) was deployed and throttle had to be advanced to brake? Perhaps something else was wrong and he didn't reach liftoff velocity for a go-around?

I understand that the aircraft was equipped with a flight data recorder. The NTSB should give us a prelim report in a week or 2, I understand.

(My interest; I live just a few miles from the runway and drive the road on which it stopped occasionally. I've friends with light singles and small twins based there with whom I've flown.)

Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4888313
10/05/18 01:53 PM
10/05/18 01:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,605
Arkansas
Win Offline
Win  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,605
Arkansas
Quote
Hm... Any mention of the winds at the time?


https://www.flyingmag.com/dassault-falcon-50-accident-greenville

"Historical weather data gathered from around the time of the accident included light winds from the northeast, overcast skies at 300 feet and visibility of 3 miles in light rain."

Following the link, 050 at 5. They landed RWY 19.


09 Torrent 3.6 V6 M1 0/30
09 Solstice 2.4 I4 Fram 5/30
08 G8 3.6 V6 ST Syn 5/30
04 Xj8 4.2 V8 Hav 5/40
99 S-10 2.2 I4 RECOVERED
94 Xj12 6.0 V12
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888359
10/05/18 02:53 PM
10/05/18 02:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by George Bynum
Originally Posted by Astro14
Greenville is 7,000' long.
Official records show 5,393' but I dug into the tech specs on the plane; it can land in less than 2000'. Takeoff would be a little tighter if fully loaded.

Originally Posted by Astro14
From the speed with which the airplane left the runway - it either touched down way past the "touchdown zone*" or the spoilers weren't armed/deployed.
The airport manager was interviewed and said he saw it land out of his window; all looked normal.

I've a friend who has some right seat experience in an Eclipse and Citation. He discussed the different systems of spoiler deployment and use and WONDERS it the wrong thing was done. NON-PROFESSIONAL REPORTS say the plane sounded at full throttle as it exited the runway. Perhaps he thought the clamshell (my term, I don't know the right one) was deployed and throttle had to be advanced to brake? Perhaps something else was wrong and he didn't reach liftoff velocity for a go-around?

I understand that the aircraft was equipped with a flight data recorder. The NTSB should give us a prelim report in a week or 2, I understand.

(My interest; I live just a few miles from the runway and drive the road on which it stopped occasionally. I've friends with light singles and small twins based there with whom I've flown.)



Thank you George - I was clearly looking at the wrong airport!

At 5,393 - take everything I said and make it more emphatic. That's not long for a runway operating a jet airplane.

The NTSB will probably give us an update in a few weeks. Full report typically takes a year or so.

The 2,000 foot distance is likely the stopping distance, not the same as landing distance. All landing distance calculations for us are predicated on crossing the threshold at 50 feet, touching down at 1,000 feet down the runway, then a 15% margin on that.

I pulled up the data for Boston runway 27 last night on my way into Boston. All the assumptions are there. Wind, weight, elevation, temp, altimeter, runway slope, flap setting, brake setting.

Using those planning assumptions, and the following conditions: 8KT Headwind, 179,700 lbs weight, temp 19C, Altimeter 29.97, 18 foot landing elevation, flaps 30, with maximum braking and reverse, we could stop a 757 in 3,192 feet. But that is standing on the brakes, with full reverse.

A more normal landing, same conditions, with autobrakes 2, would be a distance of 6,245. So, yes, after careful analysis of conditions and performance, I would've accepted runway 27 if that's what ATC requested.

But I don't know if these pilots performed that kind of analysis...I do...every time...


Tailwind doesn't help...neither does rain...

Last edited by Astro14; 10/05/18 03:09 PM.

32 Packard 15W40
01 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 Edge
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888362
10/05/18 02:54 PM
10/05/18 02:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Let me add that we also consider the runway condition, braking action, visibility and type of approach, and ability of the airplane to go around in our performance analysis. Only after all that do I consider the landing to be safe.

Flying isn't as simple as folks would like to think, sometimes...

Here, clipped to my yoke, as we're at FL390 approaching Albany, is the Boston Runway 27 analysis from last night. Lots of it is hard to read, but you can see some of the assumptions that go into the analysis...sorry that BITOG rotated the upload...

Cheers,
Astro

IMG_0278[1108].jpg
Last edited by Astro14; 10/05/18 03:00 PM.

32 Packard 15W40
01 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 Edge
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4888578
10/05/18 07:50 PM
10/05/18 07:50 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,649
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,649
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Every time you explain flying, I feel like maybe nuclear physics would be an easier hobby take up.

When I was a kid, and my elders would talk about it, I assumed it sounded complex because I was a kid. As I got older, it was just, "Nope. It's just really really complicated."


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4890634
10/08/18 07:37 AM
10/08/18 07:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,700
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,700
OH
Where did this flight originate? Europe?
Also, am I reading this correctly in that stopping distances are actually shorter with autobrake off?


18 Accord Hybrid 10K HGMO 0W-20
17 Forester 24K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 115K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: fdcg27] #4891116
10/08/18 03:00 PM
10/08/18 03:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Where did this flight originate? Europe?
Also, am I reading this correctly in that stopping distances are actually shorter with autobrake off?


That flight originated in SFO. UAL 242.

You are reading the performance analysis correctly. Autobrakes command a programmed deceleration rate. 1 is pretty mild, and in fact, with reverse engaged, the airplane slows more quickly than the programmed rate, so no actual braking is applied when using reverse and 1.

While you might think that "Max" autobrakes is maximum braking, it isn't. "Max" is the maximum deceleration rate that the autobrakes are programmed to produce.

Maximum manual braking (standing on the pedals, which is limited only by anti-lock) on a dry runway exceeds that programmed deceleration rate of autobrakes.


32 Packard 15W40
01 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 Edge
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: DoubleWasp] #4892720
10/10/18 10:09 AM
10/10/18 10:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,786
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Every time you explain flying, I feel like maybe nuclear physics would be an easier hobby take up.

When I was a kid, and my elders would talk about it, I assumed it sounded complex because I was a kid. As I got older, it was just, "Nope. It's just really really complicated."



I think that flying big airplanes, or fighters, is complicated because you’re extracting very high performance out of the machines while maintaining good safety. You’re taking off, or landing, at close to the limits of what the machine can do.

That’s not a simple matter.

It’s my hope that explaining flying here on BITOG makes it more accessible- easier to understand.

If I’m failing in that, please ask questions, I’ll be glad to clear up anything that I’ve left lingering.

Cheers,
Astro


32 Packard 15W40
01 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 Edge
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4892784
10/10/18 10:50 AM
10/10/18 10:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,086
Ontario Canada
cjcride Offline
cjcride  Offline

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,086
Ontario Canada
Astro you are a champ.
I did some single engine piston time years ago. Always liked and followed aviation stuff. You make it so clear and 'right down the center line' (no bull).

Thank You

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™