Oil temps for 2018/2019 Mustang GT

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Dfeeds
I've read some guys complaining about thermal castration on the pp2 when they had an aftermarket oil cooler and such installed. I hope your right and the gauge is accurate, however Ford decided to get the temperature. Actual numbers would be nice, though. I got that picture through 10 minutes of googling for it and the only way I can get actual numbers is to pay for the gt350 oil temp gauge which is plug and play.

Is it accessible through an OBD adapter maybe? Like a ScanGuage? I'm lucky, mine is available right in my cluster but also available on the screen of the entertainment system.


Even if it's available via OBD, it's probably still algorithm data since there is no actual oil temperature sensor anywhere on the engine.

I'd bet the "algorithmed" oil temp is pretty accurate because I'd think the Ford engineers verified by testing that the algorithm works.

One way to verify would be to stick a long thermocouple down the dipstick tube into the oil right after shutting down the engine, and compare that reading to what the colored temp zone gage showed at shutdown.

 

[OVERKILL]

That's seriously surprising

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
That's seriously surprising

Grassroots Motorsports had the same issue with a 2015 Camaro SS; no true oil temperature reading- just a calculated number based on other ECU values. If I recall correctly, the GM SS was indicating overheating on the track, when in actuality it wasn't. I think that an aftermarket gauge was the ultimate solution.

 

[racin4ds]

Its a sports car and you aren't worried one bit about that .00001% of a MPG so why even bother with 5W20??? There is a REASON all the other performance versions of the Coyote engine specified the use of 5W50. Let that sink in...

A big ol' 5.0 with 4 cams and high RPM is not the place for a 20wt CAFE inspired oil, plain and simple!

 

[racin4ds]

On another note... sorry if I'm kinda hijacking the thread but it is a relevant question....

Looking at this post I see where they mention crazy high oil temps as normal (235+) but in the 6.0 Powerstroke world we panic when the oil temps see 235-240, why is that?

The 6.0 with its HEUI system really beats up the oil and with the anemic oil cooler used on the 6.0, keeping temps under 230 towing a heavy load can be tough sometimes... if these 5W20's are doing ok at 270* then why can't my 10W30 or 15W40 HDEO do it??

 

[Dfeeds]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Its a sports car and you aren't worried one bit about that .00001% of a MPG so why even bother with 5W20??? There is a REASON all the other performance versions of the Coyote engine specified the use of 5W50. Let that sink in...

A big ol' 5.0 with 4 cams and high RPM is not the place for a 20wt CAFE inspired oil, plain and simple!


Those recommendations are also with the assumption that the vehicle will be at track conditions, ie running very hot. Plus, the performance versions are running forged aluminum internals which have bigger clearances to account for the greater thermal expansion that occurs with forged aluminum. Now 5w20 may not be the ideal choice, but on a daily, 5w50 is definitely not the ideal choice. That oil won't come close to thinning out enough to properly lubricate the engine unless I coast around in 2nd gear at 5000 rpms. Also, for this year (2018 and 2019) 5w30 is recommended for track use. Plus, 5w50 will sheer pretty quick and need more frequent oil changes. You also want thinner oil with high RPMs. Oil pressure gets really high when you're revving at 7000 rpms and the stock pump isn't up the task of pushing a higher viscosity oil through the engine.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Dfeeds
but on a daily, 5w50 is definitely not the ideal choice. That oil won't come close to thinning out enough to properly lubricate the engine unless I coast around in 2nd gear at 5000 rpms.


It would lubricate just fine, it would just be thicker than necessary and sap some power and fuel economy, both by a small amount.

Originally Posted by Dfeeds
Also, for this year (2018 and 2019) 5w30 is recommended for track use.

Then that is what one should use. That was not the case if you go back a few years.

Originally Posted by Dfeeds
Plus, 5w50 will sheer pretty quick and need more frequent oil changes.


Viscosity loss due to shear does not require more frequent oil changes. 0w-40's shear a bit in use as do 5w-40's and BMW's 10w-60. All of which are spec'd for long drain intervals.

Originally Posted by Dfeeds
You also want thinner oil with high RPMs. Oil pressure gets really high when you're revving at 7000 rpms and the stock pump isn't up the task of pushing a higher viscosity oil through the engine.


The requirement for viscosity reserve is lower at high RPM, but it has nothing to do with the pump's ability to feed the engine. MOFT increases as engine speed increases which is why lugging with thinner oil has the potential to wipe bearings. Oil pressure is an artifact of resistance to flow. Unless you are on the relief, all of that volume is going through the engine. At higher RPM, you'd be on the relief with 5w-20 or 5w-50 and have more than adequate volume, you are just losing some power to pumping losses with the heavier lubricant.

 

[Dfeeds]

And this is why I'm here. I feel like 5w50 is a bit much for a DD but I'm more interested in longevity over MPG gains. I've been doing a lot of reading on the coyote engine and it doesn't seem like it was made to have tighter clearances for the 5w20, but instead designed to withstand more friction. The heads and cam timing specifically being made to function with very little oil, debunking that the thinner oil is needed. It's disheartening, because the idea of the efficient 5w20 giving more protection via technological advances in additives is really cool, to me. Also, is there any validity to this article? https://ultimatesyntheticoil.com/ford-5w20 it's obviously made to advertise amsoil, but there's a bit more in there that sparks some thought.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Dfeeds
And this is why I'm here. I feel like 5w50 is a bit much for a DD but I'm more interested in longevity over MPG gains.


Well, there's a rather massive difference between the two grades; two different ends of the range so to speak. That leaves a lot of middle ground. One could run a 0w-30 or 0w-40 for example. I'm quite fond of the 0w-30 grade, it's a bit heavier than your 0w-20, but provides a bit more margin if things get hot.

Originally Posted by Dfeeds
I've been doing a lot of reading on the coyote engine and it doesn't seem like it was made to have tighter clearances for the 5w20, but instead designed to withstand more friction. The heads and cam timing specifically being made to function with very little oil, debunking that the thinner oil is needed.


Well, the Coyote spec'd 5w-20 and 5w-50 simultaneously, so it simply isn't an engine that's overly sensitive to viscosity. The push for the 5w-20 and thinner grades is primarily for CAFE compliance, but they should be adequate for most driving conditions due to oil temperature being well dampened due to sump volume.

Originally Posted by Dfeeds
It's disheartening, because the idea of the efficient 5w20 giving more protection via technological advances in additives is really cool, to me. Also, is there any validity to this article? https://ultimatesyntheticoil.com/ford-5w20 it's obviously made to advertise amsoil, but there's a bit more in there that sparks some thought.


You can completely ignore that article. The thing is, any advances are going to apply to all grades as well; they all benefit from these evolutions. So while there have been improvements to additives to help deal with less viscosity reserve and more operation in mixed/boundary, a 0w-30 would likely be similarly fortified while providing a slightly increased MOFT.

When CAFE is out of the picture, like on the GT500 or GT350, you'll always see a heavier oil spec'd. Same with Chrysler's SRT products all calling for 0w-40, GM now using a 0w-40 in the Corvette....etc. In applications where performance is the target not DD fuel economy credits, this is almost always the case. So while the trend, in general, is toward thinner and thinner lubricants to take advantage of the incremental increase in CAFE credits, you still see heavier oils being spec'd for those applications where that's not the primary consideration.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Looking at this post I see where they mention crazy high oil temps as normal (235+) ...


The start of the yellow zone on the Mustang is 280F ... which seems pretty hot for a 5W-20.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Dfeeds
Also, for this year (2018 and 2019) 5w30 is recommended for track use.

Then that is what one should use. That was not the case if you go back a few years.


Plus, I believe the Australian S550 Mustangs are specified to run 5W-30 all the time, I know that's true for the 2nd Gen Coyote in the 2015-2017 Mustangs. I'd say run a good full synthetic 5W-30 on the street and you'll be just fine.

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Dfeeds
You also want thinner oil with high RPMs. Oil pressure gets really high when you're revving at 7000 rpms and the stock pump isn't up the task of pushing a higher viscosity oil through the engine.
Oil pressure is an artifact of resistance to flow. Unless you are on the relief, all of that volume is going through the engine. At higher RPM, you'd be on the relief with 5w-20 or 5w-50 and have more than adequate volume, you are just losing some power to pumping losses with the heavier lubricant.


Expect it should be realized that with 5W-50 the pump will hit relief sooner, which means it will be supplying less oil volume than when it's in relief with 5W-20.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Dfeeds
Also, for this year (2018 and 2019) 5w30 is recommended for track use.

Then that is what one should use. That was not the case if you go back a few years.


Plus, I believe the Australian S550 Mustangs are specified to run 5W-30 all the time, I know that's true for the 2nd Gen Coyote in the 2015-2017 Mustangs. I'd say run a good full synthetic 5W-30 on the street and you'll be just fine.

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Dfeeds
You also want thinner oil with high RPMs. Oil pressure gets really high when you're revving at 7000 rpms and the stock pump isn't up the task of pushing a higher viscosity oil through the engine.
Oil pressure is an artifact of resistance to flow. Unless you are on the relief, all of that volume is going through the engine. At higher RPM, you'd be on the relief with 5w-20 or 5w-50 and have more than adequate volume, you are just losing some power to pumping losses with the heavier lubricant.


Expect it should be realized that with 5W-50 the pump will hit relief sooner, which means it will be supplying less oil volume than when it's in relief with 5W-20.


Which is made up for via less side leakage on the bearings as Shannow has covered, and of course it provides a thicker MOFT. Not cause for concern regardless

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Expect it should be realized that with 5W-50 the pump will hit relief sooner, which means it will be supplying less oil volume than when it's in relief with 5W-20.

Which is made up for via less side leakage on the bearings as Shannow has covered, and of course it provides a thicker MOFT. Not cause for concern regardless

Still means any time the oil pump hit's pressure relief sooner than later, there is less oil volume going through the engine's oiling system. The oiling system is pressure driven instead of positive displacement driven when the pump hit's pressure relief. The bearings may be fine, but there are other oiled components, and the Coyote has oil squirters that cool the bottom of the pistons, so cutting back total volume going into the oiling system at high RPM due to thicker oil making the pump hit relief sooner might have an impact.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Expect it should be realized that with 5W-50 the pump will hit relief sooner, which means it will be supplying less oil volume than when it's in relief with 5W-20.

Which is made up for via less side leakage on the bearings as Shannow has covered, and of course it provides a thicker MOFT. Not cause for concern regardless

Still means any time the oil pump hit's pressure relief sooner than later, there is less oil volume going through the engine's oiling system. The oiling system is pressure driven instead of positive displacement driven when the pump hit's pressure relief. The bearings may be fine, but there are other oiled components, and the Coyote has oil squirters that cool the bottom of the pistons, so cutting back total volume going into the oiling system at high RPM due to thicker oil making the pump hit relief sooner might have an impact.


Right, but flow doesn't stop or decrease when the relief is opened, it simply loses its direct relationship with engine RPM. And of course one can overrun the relief (since the actual pumping mechanism is still increasing volume relative to RPM) and increase pressure past it, which I've observed first-hand on an SBC with an HV pump.

Given the engine has spec'd 5w-50, as do almost all of Ford's high performance offerings, I think one can safely assume that Ford has tested it in these applications and that there are no grounds for concern.The difference between 5w-20 and 5w-50 at an oil temp of 260F is nothing compared to what that 5w-20 looks like at -20C when these same systems all have to function just the same.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Still means any time the oil pump hit's pressure relief sooner than later, there is less oil volume going through the engine's oiling system. The oiling system is pressure driven instead of positive displacement driven when the pump hit's pressure relief. The bearings may be fine, but there are other oiled components, and the Coyote has oil squirters that cool the bottom of the pistons, so cutting back total volume going into the oiling system at high RPM due to thicker oil making the pump hit relief sooner might have an impact.


Right, but flow doesn't stop or decrease when the relief is opened, it simply loses its direct relationship with engine RPM. And of course one can overrun the relief (since the actual pumping mechanism is still increasing volume relative to RPM) and increase pressure past it, which I've observed first-hand on an SBC with an HV pump.


Flow doesn't stop (never implied that), but the total flow volume going to the oiling system cuts back compared to what it would be if the pump was not in pressure relief ... that's all I'm saying. So in other words, if the pump never went into pressure relief at 7000 RPM, then the flow volume would be X. But if the pump went into pressure relief at 5000 RPM, but was revved beyond that point to 7000 RPM, then there would be less total volume going through the oiling system at 7000 PRM in that scenario. If it's enough cut back in flow to make a difference. If the pump is over sized anyway, it may not matter ... I'm just pointing out that there will be less oil volume supplied to the engine if a higher viscosity oil puts the pump in pressure relief at a much lower RPM.

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Given the engine has spec'd 5w-50, as do almost all of Ford's high performance offerings, I think one can safely assume that Ford has tested it in these applications and that there are no grounds for concern.The difference between 5w-20 and 5w-50 at an oil temp of 260F is nothing compared to what that 5w-20 looks like at -20C when these same systems all have to function just the same.


True ... and Ford most likely says to put thinner oil back in after track use because they probably don't want guys beating on engines with cold oil to ensure there is adequate oil supply at high RPM. Even with 5W-20 at -20C, nobody in their right mind would take the engine up to or near redline until the oil was fully warmed up. Even 5W-20 at -20C will put the pump into pressure relief at low RPM, and therefor the total flow volume to the engine would be drastically cut back.

Since Ford specs 5W-30 for that Australian Mustangs, I'd be running 5W-30 all year round in the USA unless it's in some super cold place like Alaska or Minnesota, etc. Most people don't drive sports cars in those climates anyway.

 

[OVERKILL]

 

[DoubleWasp]

Ford knows a thing or two about thin oil in V8 engines. I have abused the heck out of mine on 5w20 conventional, run for twice as long as recommended and still dropped a stellar UOA and that engine continues to run.

I doubt a spirited street Mustang will ever have as much stress as my Navi's engine has on a regular basis. Their engines were just engineered for that stuff. But for a track day, an oil cooler and thicker oil would not be a bad idea.

 

[Anthony]

I don't track my 17 GT but it is often driven in a little more than a spirited fashion on the street. I went back and 4th for awhile. I'm going to go ahead and put 5w30 Pennzoil Platinum in it.

The 2nd gen Coyote Crate motors are identical to the ones that were installed in 15-17 Mustangs. They also call for 5w50. That along with the Australian Coyotes using 5w30 has pretty much convinced me that the 5w20 was strictly to satisfy CAFE and the 5w20 surely is adequate but as a BITOGER, we usually like more than adequate.

Ford saying use 5w30 in the 18s on the track to me is them whispering to us HEY 5w30 is better but CAFE has a knife at our throat!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Anthony
I don't track my 17 GT but it is often driven in a little more than a spirited fashion on the street. I went back and 4th for awhile. I'm going to go ahead and put 5w30 Pennzoil Platinum in it.

The 2nd gen Coyote Crate motors are identical to the ones that were installed in 15-17 Mustangs. They also call for 5w50. That along with the Australian Coyotes using 5w30 has pretty much convinced me that the 5w20 was strictly to satisfy CAFE and the 5w20 surely is adequate but as a BITOGER, we usually like more than adequate.

Ford saying use 5w30 in the 18s on the track to me is them whispering to us HEY 5w30 is better but CAFE has a knife at our throat!


Also, if someone takes their Coyote in to get a Roush supercharger installed, Roush requires that 5W-50 be used in order for them to give a warranty.