Hatred for Ethanol

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50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain water, and exit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.
 
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Where are you getting a gallon of diesel to make a gallon of ethanol?

I guess when pure gas is in the tank you magically don't have any dew collecting?

Man, all these arguments are dumb. All of them.
 
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.
 
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain water, and exit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.





Go run your own numbers. I already posted a study that says I was wrong and it was a very well done study by the renewable fuels association.
As far as ethanol being corosive I have several thousand gallons of it in uncoated steel pipe for the last 20 years and when you open it up it looks oddly brand new. Paint still intact on blinds except where it was removed for sealing surfaces. Grind marks on the steel looks like they were just done.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.

Why doesn't diesel fuel production run on diesel fuel? Why is gasoline transported by diesel fuel? Why is propane transported by diesel fuel? Why aren't nuclear bombs transported by nuclear reactors? Why why why why?
 
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My dad drove an LP gas delivery truck years ago. It ran on LP.
grin.gif
 
Its that the energy used in the petroleum industry is to extra energy and deliver it.

Ethanol needs energy to plant, water, fertilise,harvest, process, distill, dry, and then transport...then co2/ch4 from decaying remnant matter.

This 'Green' fuel is scarcrly better than digging a hole to fill the last one you dug, not much more energy 'crested' than used in making it...at least in countries like ours beholden to grain lobbies.

Thats the argument.

Whether it burns clean enough to light turtles bathroom lamps is immaterial if its creating waste and pollution outside his house...we need honesty in the nett benefit.
 
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.


This is exactly what I am hearing from the marinas especially the ones on the coast, here E10 is the only fuel allowed and since they started using it the failures have been astronomical as opposed to very few on E0. I do notice some of the injectors have salt stains inside but no salt corrosion outside. No explanation just an observation.
 
I ran E-10 of the cheapest variety and burned plenty of it in my Santa Fe in the 300k miles (535k km) which is approximately 1071 tanks of fuel at roughly 60 litres per tank puts that at 64,260 litres of fuel at 10% ethanol = 6426 Litres or ethanol through that fuel system and it seemed to survive just fine with original fuel components and that vehicle didn't have a user replaceable fuel filter either unless you wanted to go into the fuel tank and change the lifetime unit on the pump assembly. It consumed no oil when the camshaft snapped from the forging defect either so there was no increased wear/tear from all this Ethanol either or whatever moisture/water it absorbed and forced through the fuel system.

Stop stressing and just run E-10. It's no big deal. The only one thing that E-10 is bad for is if it sits around in seasonal equipment where it can varnish up carbs, but even then running them until they run out of gas before storing them makes this no big deal either. I have a 30 year old snow blower and a newish lawnmower and both have been fine over many years with E-10 and this advice.
 
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Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.


This is exactly what I am hearing from the marinas especially the ones on the coast, here E10 is the only fuel allowed and since they started using it the failures have been astronomical as opposed to very few on E0. I do notice some of the injectors have salt stains inside but no salt corrosion outside. No explanation just an observation.


They've been using e10 for over 20 years here probably 30-40.

I guess you people think you can just scream failures and we'll change a policy that has been working great forever.

Wait until oil stays in the 80-120 trading range and see how much ethanol they start adding to fuel.
 
Originally Posted by turtlevette
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.


This is exactly what I am hearing from the marinas especially the ones on the coast, here E10 is the only fuel allowed and since they started using it the failures have been astronomical as opposed to very few on E0. I do notice some of the injectors have salt stains inside but no salt corrosion outside. No explanation just an observation.


They've been using e10 for over 20 years here probably 30-40.

I guess you people think you can just scream failures and we'll change a policy that has been working great forever.

Wait until oil stays in the 80-120 trading range and see how much ethanol they start adding to fuel.



If oil goes up ethanol goes up. If oil goes up and stays there we'll be using an actual alternative fuel like LPG or NG or batteries or something else. Corn ethanol will never have a sizeable impact on oil prices.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
If oil goes up ethanol goes up. If oil goes up and stays there we'll be using an actual alternative fuel like LPG or NG or batteries or something else. Corn ethanol will never have a sizeable impact on oil prices.


Especially here in the North. Ethanol doesn't run well in the cold unless the vehicle is plugged in prior to cranking it on a cold winter morning. Don't ask me how I know that.
grin2.gif
 
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Originally Posted by jhellwig


Here is a study from the renewable fuels association that essentially says I have been talking out my hind end. https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/u...of-Water-Uptake-by-Ethanol-RFA-09-16.pdf It looks like their conclusion is you either need no ethanol in the fuel or 25% or more to not have a phase separation issue in storage. It also basically says most of the fuel is junk regardless of ethanol content in 3 months.

I don't know what to believe anymore. You can find proof for any statement you want to make if you look hard enough.

.

That is pretty close to my opinion. Ethanol is great fuel at high concentrations in engines designed to take advantage of the higher octane. Ethanol at low concentrations just contaminates the fuel especially when used in a non flex fuel vehicle. I would much rather see less E10 and more e85 and E0.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
My dad drove an LP gas delivery truck years ago. It ran on LP.
grin.gif



Not many of them around here run on lp anymore. You still see a few old ones running lp but any newer delivery trucks seam to be diesel. I think the Schwann's trucks might still be propane.

It makes me giggle when I see a transport in our terminals running on natural gas. Just seams odd.
 
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Originally Posted by turtlevette
Wait until oil stays in the 80-120 trading range and see how much ethanol they start adding to fuel.




Hang on a second, in the other thread you acknowledged that ethanol tracked gas price not controlled it...
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by turtlevette
Wait until oil stays in the 80-120 trading range and see how much ethanol they start adding to fuel.




Hang on a second, in the other thread you acknowledged that ethanol tracked gas price not controlled it...


A commodity can track with the price of another and compete with it at the same time. I'm starting to wonder about you.

You're not interested in the technical truth. You're interesting in putting forth an agenda by promoting dog and pony type salesmanship. Real hard core engineers don't do that.

How many buggy whip manufacturer's have you been able to save so far?
 
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Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain water, and exit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.





Go run your own numbers. I already posted a study that says I was wrong and it was a very well done study by the renewable fuels association.
As far as ethanol being corosive I have several thousand gallons of it in uncoated steel pipe for the last 20 years and when you open it up it looks oddly brand new. Paint still intact on blinds except where it was removed for sealing surfaces. Grind marks on the steel looks like they were just done.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.

Why doesn't diesel fuel production run on diesel fuel? Why is gasoline transported by diesel fuel? Why is propane transported by diesel fuel? Why aren't nuclear bombs transported by nuclear reactors? Why why why why?


Youre actually going to deny the established scientific fact that ethanol fuel is corrosive? Wow.

The fossil fuel network runs on a lot of fossil fuel. Trucks, ships, locomotives. Its not a huge Ponzi scheme, so it gets to work that way.

To answer your other questions: Propane is generally not transported by propane, because engine fuel is not its primary market or even its intended primary market.

Nuclear bombs are not transported by nuclear reactors because of some extremely valid safety concerns. There is about zero demand in the market for the use of uranium as engine fuel.

Ethanol fuel is an engine fuel. The purpose of it is to substitute fossil engine fuel to reduce environmental impact. It runs on the very fuel it is intended to substitute, increasing the impact, in order to decrease it. The situation it seeks to avoid is the one it is creating. That's before we get to the banned farming practices that have re-emerged to support it, the other massive land abuses, the water abuses, and the effect of nitrogen and pesticide toxification.

That's as dumb as building a paper recycling factory that runs off of a wood burning furnace.

C. Montgomery Burns couldn't have come up with this scheme, but it sounds like he did.
 
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain water, and exit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.





Go run your own numbers. I already posted a study that says I was wrong and it was a very well done study by the renewable fuels association.
As far as ethanol being corosive I have several thousand gallons of it in uncoated steel pipe for the last 20 years and when you open it up it looks oddly brand new. Paint still intact on blinds except where it was removed for sealing surfaces. Grind marks on the steel looks like they were just done.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.

Why doesn't diesel fuel production run on diesel fuel? Why is gasoline transported by diesel fuel? Why is propane transported by diesel fuel? Why aren't nuclear bombs transported by nuclear reactors? Why why why why?


Youre actually going to deny the established scientific fact that ethanol fuel is corrosive? Wow.

The fossil fuel network runs on a lot of fossil fuel. Trucks, ships, locomotives. Its not a huge Ponzi scheme, so it gets to work that way.

To answer your other questions: Propane is generally not transported by propane, because engine fuel is not its primary market or even its intended primary market.

Nuclear bombs are not transported by nuclear reactors because of some extremely valid safety concerns. There is about zero demand in the market for the use of uranium as engine fuel.

Ethanol fuel is an engine fuel. The purpose of it is to substitute fossil engine fuel to reduce environmental impact. It runs on the very fuel it is intended to substitute, increasing the impact, in order to decrease it. The situation it seeks to avoid is the one it is creating. That's before we get to the banned farming practices that have re-emerged to support it, the other massive land abuses, the water abuses, and the effect of nitrogen and pesticide toxification.

That's as dumb as building a paper recycling factory that runs off of a wood burning furnace.

C. Montgomery Burns couldn't have come up with this scheme, but it sounds like he did.

You just say ethanol is corrosive. The problem with that statement is that it isn't corrosive to all metals or at the rates that everyone makes it out to be. Steel being one that it doesn't affect. It doesn't mater what you want to think. There are millions of gallons of ethanol sitting in steel pipes and tanks for a lot of years and they aren't rusting apart.

My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.
 
Originally Posted by jhellwig


My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.

Transportation of ethanol isn't the only aspect of ethanol production that uses petroleum. Pretty much every single aspect from breaking the ground to plant a seed to delivery to the local Shell station is dependent on oil. Don't forget the pesticides and herbicides are oil and had to be transported to the farm with oil.

How many gallons of oil do they use to make 100 gallons of ethanol?
 
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Originally Posted by Danno

10% blend means you get 3% less mpg or you need to burn 3% more fuel for the same miles - how is that good for the environment?


You need to burn 3% more VOLUME of fuel. You burn exactly the same number of carbon and hydrogen atoms... its not magic. You do NOT put more pollution out of the tailpipe burning E10, or E85, even though you do have to put a larger volume of fluid in the intake. Now I'm not going to pretend that ethanol is truly net carbon zero because there's a fair amount of energy burned just in making the stuff, but in theory the ethanol carbon atoms you're burning are not "fresh release" from reserves that have been trapped deep below the ground for millions of years. The carbon atoms in ethanol were in the atmosphere and re-captured by plants as recently as a few months before you burned them. THAT'S how its good for the environment.


Originally Posted by Danno
Consumers took a 3% price hike with the 3% mileage decrease


That's really hard to measure, because the economy was very different the last time we had commodity-volume of non-ethanol fuel. Today, non-ethanol fuel is typically MORE expensive than ethanol, because as I mentioned in my first post ethanol is an inexpensive octane booster/oxygenate compared to permissible alternatives now that MTBE is verboten.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by jhellwig


My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.

Transportation of ethanol isn't the only aspect of ethanol production that uses petroleum. Pretty much every single aspect from breaking the ground to plant a seed to delivery to the local Shell station is dependent on oil. Don't forget the pesticides and herbicides are oil and had to be transported to the farm with oil.

How many gallons of oil do they use to make 100 gallons of ethanol?

Just because I forgot to put production in the first scentence you think I only was talking about transportation. Would you like me to amend it? I clearly said production in the statement later.

It doesn't take half a brain to figure out that diesel is used to produce and transport everything in some way. That argument is pointless. For almost every way energy is produced there is a more efficient way to produce it yet inefficient processes are used due to cost. You keep confusing efficiency with cost effectiveness.

I will say it again. Ethanol is not replacing all petroleum products. It wasn't meant to and never will. It replaces a portion of one product so there is no point to the argument that it takes petroleum to produce it is just a pointless argument.


Out of all the negative aspect and opinions about ethanol no one ever mentions a way to replace it's use for the purpose it is intended for with another product that is better? Why is that?
 
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