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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: hatt] #4891289
10/08/18 06:30 PM
10/08/18 06:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,017
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline
StevieC  Offline

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,017
ON, Canada eh?
Originally Posted by hatt
If oil goes up ethanol goes up. If oil goes up and stays there we'll be using an actual alternative fuel like LPG or NG or batteries or something else. Corn ethanol will never have a sizeable impact on oil prices.


Especially here in the North. Ethanol doesn't run well in the cold unless the vehicle is plugged in prior to cranking it on a cold winter morning. Don't ask me how I know that. grin2


Last edited by StevieC; 10/08/18 06:30 PM.

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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: jhellwig] #4891332
10/08/18 07:07 PM
10/08/18 07:07 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,406
Georgia
AVB Offline
AVB  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,406
Georgia
Originally Posted by jhellwig


Here is a study from the renewable fuels association that essentially says I have been talking out my hind end. https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/u...of-Water-Uptake-by-Ethanol-RFA-09-16.pdf It looks like their conclusion is you either need no ethanol in the fuel or 25% or more to not have a phase separation issue in storage. It also basically says most of the fuel is junk regardless of ethanol content in 3 months.

I don’t know what to believe anymore. You can find proof for any statement you want to make if you look hard enough.

.

That is pretty close to my opinion. Ethanol is great fuel at high concentrations in engines designed to take advantage of the higher octane. Ethanol at low concentrations just contaminates the fuel especially when used in a non flex fuel vehicle. I would much rather see less E10 and more e85 and E0.

Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: hatt] #4891340
10/08/18 07:14 PM
10/08/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
jhellwig Offline
jhellwig  Offline

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted by hatt
My dad drove an LP gas delivery truck years ago. It ran on LP. grin


Not many of them around here run on lp anymore. You still see a few old ones running lp but any newer delivery trucks seam to be diesel. I think the Schwann’s trucks might still be propane.

It makes me giggle when I see a transport in our terminals running on natural gas. Just seams odd.

Last edited by jhellwig; 10/08/18 07:16 PM.

Sparks fly from my fingers.

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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: turtlevette] #4891454
10/08/18 09:26 PM
10/08/18 09:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,183
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,183
'Stralia
Originally Posted by turtlevette
Wait until oil stays in the 80-120 trading range and see how much ethanol they start adding to fuel.




Hang on a second, in the other thread you acknowledged that ethanol tracked gas price not controlled it...


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: Shannow] #4891485
10/08/18 10:47 PM
10/08/18 10:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,756
Massachusetts
turtlevette Offline
turtlevette  Offline

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,756
Massachusetts
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by turtlevette
Wait until oil stays in the 80-120 trading range and see how much ethanol they start adding to fuel.




Hang on a second, in the other thread you acknowledged that ethanol tracked gas price not controlled it...


A commodity can track with the price of another and compete with it at the same time. I'm starting to wonder about you.

You're not interested in the technical truth. You're interesting in putting forth an agenda by promoting dog and pony type salesmanship. Real hard core engineers don't do that.

How many buggy whip manufacturer's have you been able to save so far?




Last edited by turtlevette; 10/08/18 11:00 PM.

USA-1
Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: jhellwig] #4891560
10/09/18 04:04 AM
10/09/18 04:04 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,710
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,710
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain water, and exit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.





Go run your own numbers. I already posted a study that says I was wrong and it was a very well done study by the renewable fuels association.
As far as ethanol being corosive I have several thousand gallons of it in uncoated steel pipe for the last 20 years and when you open it up it looks oddly brand new. Paint still intact on blinds except where it was removed for sealing surfaces. Grind marks on the steel looks like they were just done.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.

Why doesn’t diesel fuel production run on diesel fuel? Why is gasoline transported by diesel fuel? Why is propane transported by diesel fuel? Why aren’t nuclear bombs transported by nuclear reactors? Why why why why?


Youre actually going to deny the established scientific fact that ethanol fuel is corrosive? Wow.

The fossil fuel network runs on a lot of fossil fuel. Trucks, ships, locomotives. Its not a huge Ponzi scheme, so it gets to work that way.

To answer your other questions: Propane is generally not transported by propane, because engine fuel is not its primary market or even its intended primary market.

Nuclear bombs are not transported by nuclear reactors because of some extremely valid safety concerns. There is about zero demand in the market for the use of uranium as engine fuel.

Ethanol fuel is an engine fuel. The purpose of it is to substitute fossil engine fuel to reduce environmental impact. It runs on the very fuel it is intended to substitute, increasing the impact, in order to decrease it. The situation it seeks to avoid is the one it is creating. That's before we get to the banned farming practices that have re-emerged to support it, the other massive land abuses, the water abuses, and the effect of nitrogen and pesticide toxification.

That's as dumb as building a paper recycling factory that runs off of a wood burning furnace.

C. Montgomery Burns couldn't have come up with this scheme, but it sounds like he did.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: DoubleWasp] #4891610
10/09/18 06:57 AM
10/09/18 06:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
jhellwig Offline
jhellwig  Offline

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain water, and exit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.





Go run your own numbers. I already posted a study that says I was wrong and it was a very well done study by the renewable fuels association.
As far as ethanol being corosive I have several thousand gallons of it in uncoated steel pipe for the last 20 years and when you open it up it looks oddly brand new. Paint still intact on blinds except where it was removed for sealing surfaces. Grind marks on the steel looks like they were just done.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.

Why doesn’t diesel fuel production run on diesel fuel? Why is gasoline transported by diesel fuel? Why is propane transported by diesel fuel? Why aren’t nuclear bombs transported by nuclear reactors? Why why why why?


Youre actually going to deny the established scientific fact that ethanol fuel is corrosive? Wow.

The fossil fuel network runs on a lot of fossil fuel. Trucks, ships, locomotives. Its not a huge Ponzi scheme, so it gets to work that way.

To answer your other questions: Propane is generally not transported by propane, because engine fuel is not its primary market or even its intended primary market.

Nuclear bombs are not transported by nuclear reactors because of some extremely valid safety concerns. There is about zero demand in the market for the use of uranium as engine fuel.

Ethanol fuel is an engine fuel. The purpose of it is to substitute fossil engine fuel to reduce environmental impact. It runs on the very fuel it is intended to substitute, increasing the impact, in order to decrease it. The situation it seeks to avoid is the one it is creating. That's before we get to the banned farming practices that have re-emerged to support it, the other massive land abuses, the water abuses, and the effect of nitrogen and pesticide toxification.

That's as dumb as building a paper recycling factory that runs off of a wood burning furnace.

C. Montgomery Burns couldn't have come up with this scheme, but it sounds like he did.

You just say ethanol is corrosive. The problem with that statement is that it isn’t corrosive to all metals or at the rates that everyone makes it out to be. Steel being one that it doesn’t affect. It doesn’t mater what you want to think. There are millions of gallons of ethanol sitting in steel pipes and tanks for a lot of years and they aren’t rusting apart.

My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.


Sparks fly from my fingers.

1995 Chevy K2500 Suburban lt 5.7
2014 Toyota Sienna
1983 Chevy K5 350
Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: jhellwig] #4891660
10/09/18 08:21 AM
10/09/18 08:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,354
Florida
hatt Online content
hatt  Online Content

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,354
Florida
Originally Posted by jhellwig


My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.

Transportation of ethanol isn't the only aspect of ethanol production that uses petroleum. Pretty much every single aspect from breaking the ground to plant a seed to delivery to the local Shell station is dependent on oil. Don't forget the pesticides and herbicides are oil and had to be transported to the farm with oil.

How many gallons of oil do they use to make 100 gallons of ethanol?

Last edited by hatt; 10/09/18 08:23 AM.

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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: Danno] #4891780
10/09/18 10:39 AM
10/09/18 10:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,813
Texas
440Magnum Offline
440Magnum  Offline

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,813
Texas
Originally Posted by Danno

10% blend means you get 3% less mpg or you need to burn 3% more fuel for the same miles - how is that good for the environment?


You need to burn 3% more VOLUME of fuel. You burn exactly the same number of carbon and hydrogen atoms... its not magic. You do NOT put more pollution out of the tailpipe burning E10, or E85, even though you do have to put a larger volume of fluid in the intake. Now I'm not going to pretend that ethanol is truly net carbon zero because there's a fair amount of energy burned just in making the stuff, but in theory the ethanol carbon atoms you're burning are not "fresh release" from reserves that have been trapped deep below the ground for millions of years. The carbon atoms in ethanol were in the atmosphere and re-captured by plants as recently as a few months before you burned them. THAT'S how its good for the environment.


Originally Posted by Danno
Consumers took a 3% price hike with the 3% mileage decrease


That's really hard to measure, because the economy was very different the last time we had commodity-volume of non-ethanol fuel. Today, non-ethanol fuel is typically MORE expensive than ethanol, because as I mentioned in my first post ethanol is an inexpensive octane booster/oxygenate compared to permissible alternatives now that MTBE is verboten.


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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: hatt] #4891930
10/09/18 01:31 PM
10/09/18 01:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
jhellwig Offline
jhellwig  Offline

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by jhellwig


My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.

Transportation of ethanol isn't the only aspect of ethanol production that uses petroleum. Pretty much every single aspect from breaking the ground to plant a seed to delivery to the local Shell station is dependent on oil. Don't forget the pesticides and herbicides are oil and had to be transported to the farm with oil.

How many gallons of oil do they use to make 100 gallons of ethanol?

Just because I forgot to put production in the first scentence you think I only was talking about transportation. Would you like me to amend it? I clearly said production in the statement later.

It doesn't take half a brain to figure out that diesel is used to produce and transport everything in some way. That argument is pointless. For almost every way energy is produced there is a more efficient way to produce it yet inefficient processes are used due to cost. You keep confusing efficiency with cost effectiveness.

I will say it again. Ethanol is not replacing all petroleum products. It wasn't meant to and never will. It replaces a portion of one product so there is no point to the argument that it takes petroleum to produce it is just a pointless argument.


Out of all the negative aspect and opinions about ethanol no one ever mentions a way to replace it's use for the purpose it is intended for with another product that is better? Why is that?


Sparks fly from my fingers.

1995 Chevy K2500 Suburban lt 5.7
2014 Toyota Sienna
1983 Chevy K5 350
Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: turtlevette] #4892031
10/09/18 03:57 PM
10/09/18 03:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,025
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,025
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted by turtlevette
They've been using e10 for over 20 years here probably 30-40.


Not true (do you just pull these so called "facts" out of your backside or what) MA went E10 in 2008. Marinas could get E0 later than that.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: jhellwig] #4892109
10/09/18 06:17 PM
10/09/18 06:17 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,710
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,710
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain watsubstitutit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.





Go run your own numbers. I already posted a study that says I was wrong and it was a very well done study by the renewable fuels association.
As far as ethanol being corosive I have several thousand gallons of it in uncoated steel pipe for the last 20 years and when you open it up it looks oddly brand new. Paint still intact on blinds except where it was removed for sealing surfaces. Grind marks on the steel looks like they were just done.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.

Why doesn’t diesel fuel production run on diesel fuel? Why is gasoline transported by diesel fuel? Why is propane transported by diesel fuel? Why aren’t nuclear bombs transported by nuclear reactors? Why why why why?


Youre actually going to deny the established scientific fact that ethanol fuel is corrosive? Wow.

The fossil fuel network runs on a lot of fossil fuel. Trucks, ships, locomotives. Its not a huge Ponzi scheme, so it gets to work that way.

To answer your other questions: Propane is generally not transported by propane, because engine fuel is not its primary market or even its intended primary market.

Nuclear bombs are not transported by nuclear reactors because of some extremely valid safety concerns. There is about zero demand in the market for the use of uranium as engine fuel.

Ethanol fuel is an engine fuel. The purpose of it is to substitute fossil engine fuel to reduce environmental impact. It runs on the very fuel it is intended to substitute, increasing the impact, in order to decrease it. The situation it seeks to avoid is the one it is creating. That's before we get to the banned farming practices that have re-emerged to support it, the other massive land abuses, the water abuses, and the effect of nitrogen and pesticide toxification.

That's as dumb as building a paper recycling factory that runs off of a wood burning furnace.

C. Montgomery Burns couldn't have come up with this scheme, but it sounds like he did.

You just say ethanol is corrosive. The problem with that statement is that it isn’t corrosive to all metals or at the rates that everyone makes it out to be. Steel being one that it doesn’t affect. It doesn’t mater what you want to think. There are millions of gallons of ethanol sitting in steel pipes and tanks for a lot of years and they aren’t rusting apart.

My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.



It's corrosive enough to jam the needle in a carburetor and eat out unprepared fuel lines. Thats quite enough right there.

How exactly are you missing this point?

Goal:

Substitute the burning of fossil fuel to reduce emissions to help the environment.

Means:

Burn tons and tons of fossil fuel and destroy the environment to create it.

Result: A fuel mixture that increases pollution. A manufacturing process that increases pollution.

Achievement: Same thing as just leaving the fossil fuel to be burnt in a vehicle, without the stupid roundabout process.

It doesnt matter that everything is transported by diesel fuel because those items are not supposed to be reducing the very thing that the burning of diesel fuel causes.

You keep beating around the bush trying to avoid that ethanol fuel is the ultimate Pyrrhic Victory of science.

Nothing is being replaced in portion or whole. Ssme or worse environmental impact, with a whole lot more government corruption and monkeying around than was there in the first place. Fail.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: jhellwig] #4892115
10/09/18 06:20 PM
10/09/18 06:20 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,710
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DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline

Joined: May 2012
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by jhellwig


Out of all the negative aspect and opinions about ethanol no one ever mentions a way to replace it's use for the purpose it is intended for with another product that is better? Why is that?



The name of better product is already known. It's called gasoline. Same result as making and burning ethanol, with none of the extra sanctimonious and corrupt bull.


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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: DoubleWasp] #4892135
10/09/18 06:41 PM
10/09/18 06:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
jhellwig Offline
jhellwig  Offline

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,884
Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by jhellwig
[quote=DoubleWasp]50 gallons? 20 degree temperature swing? 75% humidity? Where does that go on? A small boat club in Vermont?

Try 225 gallons, and a boat that has an internal temperature of almost 100 degrees in the day, and in the 60's at night, with humidity in the high 90's.

Run some accurate calculations on that and see how long it takes to get a gallon of water. Keep in mind that it takes less than a quart to overwhelm a water separator on your typical inboard engine to render it completely unable to operate.

Water from somewhere else? If we disconnect the 3/8" fuel hose and hook it to a manifold with the 3/4" vent line, and are able to draw a stable vacuum of 5 inches, as well as a stable pressure of 5 psi, how in the world do you figure the water came from somewhere else? Unless the engine is creating water and shooting it into the fuel tank through its feed line, it is coming in through the vent. Fuel tank vents are universally shielded from rain watsubstitutit through downward facing lines to vent the tank, so it's not rain, wake, or splash coming in.



Here's what we didn't even see in the last few pages:

*Any argument that ethanol fuel doesn't corrode the living daylights out of carburetors and older fuel systems.


Nothing that was said changes the fact that ethanol is still a Tailpipe Scam. It looks good only if you measure the impact at the tailpipe. Once you consider the impact of the creation of the fuel, it is plain to see that creating ethanol fuel requires almost as much use of diesel fuel. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. May as well cut out the middle man, and just burn diesel fuel, because the legacy of ethanol carries all of the legacy of fossil fuel and in addition the impact of direct ethanol fuel creation.

Scam. And us taxpayers are the ones paying to turn 1 gallon of diesel fuel into 1.1 gallons of ethanol. They may as well call these people government alchemists.





[/quo]Go run your own numbers. I already posted a study that says I was wrong and it was a very well done study by the renewable fuels association.
As far as ethanol being corosive I have several thousand gallons of it in uncoated steel pipe for the last 20 years and when you open it up it looks oddly brand new. Paint still intact on blinds except where it was removed for sealing surfaces. Grind marks on the steel looks like they were just done.
[quote=DoubleWasp]Aside from the numerous studies, the better examination is one of logic: Why doesn't the ethanol production system run off of ethanol? Ethanol farm equipment, ethanol trucks, the whole thing? We both know the answer to that question. It's not a mystery that every truck leaving production full of ethanol would be directed straight to ethanol manufacture, and none of it would be available for consumer sale.

Ethanol makes it to market on the back of fossil fuel production, and self-inflated corn prices through government's external manipulation. Take both out of the picture, and ethanol goes bankrupt at sunrise.

Dew doesn't collect in fuel tanks of pure gasoline fast enough to make a difference on a frequently used boat. Boats that are not used frequently can simply be filled, and there is no space for dew to work its magic. We did a Chaparral last year that we received from a marina that had been on the dry for more than 3 years with a nearly full tank of marine gasoline. Once we replaced both engines (both dead of bad exhausts), know what happened when we primed the system and turned the keys? Started right up like lightning. The clear bowls of the water separators had maybe 1/16 of an inch of water in the bottom of them after running the boat for 2 hours as the engines broke in.

This is exactly why you will never see an airplane get filled up with an ethanol mixed fuel, either. Easy enough to say "stuff happens" and go into denial when someone breaks down and has to call a tow. Much more difficult when somebody falls out of the sky and dies.[/quot
Why doesn’t diesel fuel production run on diesel fuel? Why is gasoline transported by diesel fuel? Why is propane transported by diesel fuel? Why aren’t nuclear bombs transported by nuclear reactors? Why why why why?


Youre actually going to deny the established scientific fact that ethanol fuel is corrosive? Wow.

The fossil fuel network runs on a lot of fossil fuel. Trucks, ships, locomotives. Its not a huge Ponzi scheme, so it gets to work that way.

To answer your other questions: Propane is generally not transported by propane, because engine fuel is not its primary market or even its intended primary market.

Nuclear bombs are not transported by nuclear reactors because of some extremely valid safety concerns. There is about zero demand in the market for the use of uranium as engine fuel.

Ethanol fuel is an engine fuel. The purpose of it is to substitute fossil engine fuel to reduce environmental impact. It runs on the very fuel it is intended to substitute, increasing the impact, in order to decrease it. The situation it seeks to avoid is the one it is creating. That's before we get to the banned farming practices that have re-emerged to support it, the other massive land abuses, the water abuses, and the effect of nitrogen and pesticide toxification.

That's as dumb as building a paper recycling factory that runs off of a wood burning furnace.

C. Montgomery Burns couldn't have come up with this scheme, but it sounds like he did.

You just say ethanol is corrosive. The problem with that statement is that it isn’t corrosive to all metals or at the rates that everyone makes it out to be. Steel being one that it doesn’t affect. It doesn’t mater what you want to think. There are millions of gallons of ethanol sitting in steel pipes and tanks for a lot of years and they aren’t rusting apart.

My point with my silly questions is that every thing is primarily transported by diesel fuel. Ethanol is only meant to replace a portion of gasoline, not all fossil fuels. The only thing that uses gasoline anymore are cars, small trucks and small equipment. The argument that you use diesel fuel in ethanol production is just idiotic as you use diesel fuel to transport everything. No body is comparing ethanol to diesel fuel. Stop with these idiotic statements.



It's corrosive enough to jam the needle in a carburetor and eat out unprepared fuel lines. Thats quite enough right there.

How exactly are you missing this point?

Goal:

Substitute the burning of fossil fuel to reduce emissions to help the environment.

Means:

Burn tons and tons of fossil fuel and destroy the environment to create it.

Result: A fuel mixture that increases pollution. A manufacturing process that increases pollution.

Achievement: Same thing as just leaving the fossil fuel to be burnt in a vehicle, without the stupid roundabout process.

It doesnt matter that everything is transported by diesel fuel because those items are not supposed to be reducing the very thing that the burning of diesel fuel causes.

You keep beating around the bush trying to avoid that ethanol fuel is the ultimate Pyrrhic Victory of science.

Nothing is being replaced in portion or whole. Ssme or worse environmental impact, with a whole lot more government corruption and monkeying around than was there in the first place. Fail.
So explain to me why ethanol doesn’t corrode anything in Iowa yet it does in Florida? Does ethanol know geography?

Why do you keep saying that ethanol is supposed to reduce diesel pollution? Why is it so hard for you to figure that out? Why is it ok to use diesel fuel for production and transportation of everything else yet you think ethanol should only be used to produce and transport itself? Corn is going to be produced regardless of its use in ethanol so it’s diesel use is a moot point.


I have never once stated that ethanol didn’t have its own problems or was efficient or decreases pollution.
Quote
Originally Posted by jhellwig


Out of all the negative aspect and opinions about ethanol no one ever mentions a way to replace it's use for the purpose it is intended for with another product that is better? Why is that?



The name of better product is already known. It's called gasoline. Same result as making and burning ethanol, with none of the extra sanctimonious and corrupt bull.
Here we go again with the reading comprehension. Gasoline is not a replacement for ethanol. What was ethanol intended for before its boom in production and high gas prices made it a viable alternative to gasoline?

Last edited by jhellwig; 10/09/18 06:57 PM.

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Re: Hatred for Ethanol [Re: jhellwig] #4892313
10/09/18 09:06 PM
10/09/18 09:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,183
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,183
'Stralia
The reason that ethanol gets a hard time regarding the diesel use is simple...it takes 80 btus of fossil fuels to make 100 btus of ethanol (using the US and Australian grain based model).

So your tank of E10 is essentially E2 when you nett off the fossil fuels used to make it.

If ethanol fuelled it's own production, then clearly the fossil fuels used to make it would be replaced with renewables, and could be claimed to be green, instead of just swishing that inconvenient fact under the carpet.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
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