2018 Accord 2.0 T FF UOA

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Hi guys- Adding the Blackstone report on my 18 Accord 2.0T- factory fill. I decided to dump it at 4400 miles and this is the UOA. Nothing unexpected I don't think. Mainly adding it for interest but always open to expert feedback. The questions really in my mind that caused me to do the UOA on the FF and follow it into the future are:

1. Do I pay attention to the MM? The maintenance minder was at 50% (4400 mi) when I dumped this.
2. Do I stick with 0w20 (I am not worried about warranty issues)
3. I also have an 18 CRV 1.5T and have followed the whole oil dilution/TGDI/hysteria on the various forums. I changed that oil on the same day (at 2800 mi) but the UOA isn't back yet. I will post it when it does arrive. I am fascinated with the whole question of how oil selection affects TGDI engines/longevity/etc.

No rise in oil volumes or any observable dilution and really not worried about it other than as it affects the frequency of my oil changes/weight of oil, etc.

I have used 91 octane gas from the start in both vehicles.

I love this 2.0T engine and the Accord so far.


Thanks

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My son has a 2015 Accord with 3.5 v6 - we have found the MM to be pretty accurate . So far the UOA has come back very good. First oil change at about 5k miles, the rest of the oil changes at about 9k miles with about 10% left.
 
This may mean absolutely nothing in terms of long term durability and the engine is still very young, but this UOA shows tons of fuel dilution despite Blackstone's comments. A 100C viscosity of 6.05 cSt would likely translate into fuel dilution of >5% from a lab that uses the much more reliable gas chromotography method, like Oil Analyzers, Inc.

There are lots of comments in this forum about Blackstone's fuel dilution deficiencies and I won't repeat them here.

Fuel dilution isn't uncommon in DI/TGDI engines, but Honda seems to be among the worst offenders across its engine range: 2.4 DI, 1.5 TGDI and 2.0 TGDI. Maybe it doesn't matter, but...
 
So I check the oil levels religiously (due to the hysteria around FD in Honda world) and it has never moved one iota over the course of the 4400 miles. I also, I guess obviously, change my own oil and carry off the old oil in the container I just emptied in the change. So, I know, for a fact, exactly 5 qts (the sump volume) went in and I took out 5 quarts, carrying it off in the newly emptied container. So.....while I believe there is fuel dilution occurring on a continuous basis, I think its being effectively boiled off etc etc. I do believe the Fuel dilution was 1%-ish due to this. I know there wasn't an extra 0.5 qts of gas in the oil at the dump.

The question for me is whether the ongoing fuel dilution of a TGDI engine shears the oil over time in a way that going the full Maintenance minder recommended interval is too long. I am an amateur, but my read of this UOA was that it was good that I dumped at 4400 miles due to the viscosity. I now have PP SN+ Dexos G2 oil in it and am really curious to see over a similar time frame its performance.
 
That whole Honda Turbo-ed engine oil dilution subject has EXPLODED when you scan the forums for CRV's and Civics. Not a lot on the Accord forums yet, but it will as other frequent forum readers will discover and freak the heck out. We got a new 2018 CRV last month, have about 600-ish miles on it. Of course, I checked the oil as soon as I heard about this and its suppose to be where it's at. The one thing I've wondered is that Honda is using an 0W-20 oil with this engine series. It's already pretty thin....are the folks that say they got dilution issues confusing the thinner oil to be gasoline? Even the smell test....I mean....gas and oil all come from crude oil so there will be olfactory similarities. Came across one story where this fella dropped 7 quarts out of his oil pan....wha???? Oil dilution is going to be an operational hazard with any turbo engine. When your pumping in 14 psi into the combustion chamber, some of the atomized fuel is going to get past the rings, but not as bad as the rotary engine problem that Mazda had with oil consumption from the apex rings deteriorating over time. Also, a lot of the comments still claim they are getting 26-35 mpg, if it's dumping that much fuel, wouldn't that mileage be a lot worse? I know it's 100% all not user error, but some of those stories I just can't believe. Got to be more to it than that like the whole story wasn't told exactly. Also, how many of these engines are on the road now? Hundreds of thousands since 2016 I believe, and only a handful are having issues. Kind of like the Ford 5.4 spitting spark plugs....only a fraction of a percent were.
 
Yes. I refilled with pennzoil platinum 0w/20. For background: I have followed these Honda turbo/Fuel dilution/etc discussions on various forums. I have 3 2018 Honda Turbo's. I have a 2018 Civic Si 1.5LT 6sp, a 2018 Honda CRV 1.5T (tuned differently than the Si from factory), and the 18 Accord 2.0T. All have less than 5000 miles on them. All are different variants of this technology. Honda recommends premium octane only on the Si but I have used premium in all 3 from purchase. I have now dumped the factory fill on the CRV and the Accord. I have heard every theory and assumption out there and figure I am in a nice position to look more objectively at this issue due to happening to have all 3 of these vehicles at roughly the same stage. So without rehashing the theories and suppositions that have been and are being thoroughly discussed elsewhere, I have my 3 questions and hope to track them using UOA's as well as knowing exactly what and how much oil I put in and take out. This UOA is the first step in that and I will post the CRV UOA when I get it back. So far------I have seen no volume changes inn the oil in any of the 3 cars. It looks like to me that the 4400 mile dump (50% on MM) was really close to good timing. The wear metals are good. the viscosity is edging down to the line and there is clearly fuel diluting as expected but no harm done. The CRV was dumped at 2800 miles and 60% on the MM. The other recent thread with a factory fill dump on a 1.5T at 11000kms and the MM saying it was time looked to be a little late with rising wear metals and viscosity/flashpoint below what I would think is good. But I am not very sophisticated at making these judgments and figured that collecting these various data points might help inform in a better way the discussion.
 
Ive read all of that mess too. Its a whole hysterical mess of people never looking at a dipstick or their oil, all of sudden looking and smelling and feeling. Deciding it smells like gas or is too dark or is too thin or all kinds of things. Its absolutely crazy. They by in large aren't looking at what matters and getting UOA's. Its just a hot mess of anecdotal information. Having said that, there is fuel dilution, and I am not sure how climate affects all this, etc etc. I decided that the best thing for me was to stay calm, and try to stick with data and see what happens. So far I am very pleased, but as I said, I have always put premium gas in them, I am deciding which oil to use, etc. All of which is what I think you do with any machine.
 
I'm sure you and I have read the same forum discussions on the Honda sites. I find it hard to believe Honda didn't realize that oil dilution is going to happen and they didn't anticipate that. I've read that Honda has used different metallurgy coatings on those turbo engines to help combat that. I asked the dealer about that and he said it wasn't or hasn't been an issue for them here in Oklahoma. He was aware of the China situation. I was also told that the oil the dealership uses is 100% synthetic, no real reason to doubt him based on the new turbo engine requirements. However, I'm wondering if there is different formulation. In my case, dealer warranties the engine for life as long as they change the oil, meaning I don't really know exactly what they are putting in the new CRV other than it being a full synthetic. They also told me to just stick with the MM. I now question that based on reading other sources of information and based on your UOA. Ours is the wife's car, from which she drives 45 minutes one way to work, 5 days a week and 75% interstate driving. A lot of information regarding dilution seems to be pointed at those that drive short trips and not running the engine for "a while" at operating temps. I'd like to see the correlation difference in dilution between those that just drive short trips and those that drive long hauls, and maybe climatic data as well. You state your location in AZ and TX, kind of similar to OK. I had read that Honda puts a boat load of Mo in their factory fills, your UOA proves that. Wonder what the dealer Honda Oil has in it. Does Mo help with oil dilution? I don't know. Viscosity was surprisedly low for being at 50% of MM. But, with the flash at 365, wouldn't it be higher if gas was getting into the oil? I diffidently will be following this thread and great job. I like how you logically approach this. Seems that Honda is going through some changes with these newer type of engines.
 
I am an Okie bred, but yes in AZ and TX now, back and forth. The other thing I have done is run a scangauge (mainly on the CRV as I only have one scangauge) to look at operating temps and how quick it rises, when the thermostat seems to open, and CVT temps to try and understand the heat patterns on this car.It doesn't look at oil temp directly. However, being in a hot climate, and just coming off summer, that data is skewed in my mind. nevertheless, the CRV gets to operating temps within a mile or two and the t-stat opens. The whole engine appears to be hot within 5 miles usually. So nothing weird there yet, we will see what winter (such as it is) brings. Otherwise, we are on the same quest I think. Others can speak more knowledgeably about dilution and flash point, but I believe gas is more volatile and lowers flash point of oil.
 
The good news about the whole Honda fuel dilution issue is that a) it seems to affect all DI/TGDI Honda engines and b) Honda must have known fuel dilution would occur - and if they didn't know at the outset they certainly do now. In the interest of fuel economy Honda may have tuned these things more aggressively than other OEMs, but there seems to be no action on its part to make changes.

So, Honda must be confident these levels of dilution won't unreasonably compromise engine life. Whether this means that the era of the 200,000 mile Honda engine is a thing of the past will take time to determine.
 
There are some TGDI Honda engines hitting the 100K mile mark now, but no major failures directly related to the issue have come up yet. I would suspect that if the engine oil is changed more frequently, I see no reason why they can't go that far. This is not unique to Honda, oil dilution occurs in all engines, just more pronounced when you dump 15 psi into the combustion chamber.
 
I totally agree. I am confident of the engineering. I just think this new type engine requires some different kinds of maintenance to perform to 200K. My project is to try and understand it, probably prompted mostly by the hysterical posts on the various honda forums. I have seen nothing that convinces me there is a "problem". i think that my maintenance and care of the power train will be better if I understand the issues specific to it and alter accordingly. So for now that comes down to 1 how often 2 what oil 3 what gas and any other observations that don't rely upon touch, smell, or color. I am reasonably sure that if I just drove the things and followed the maintenance minder I would be fine for as long as I am going to keep the car. But, that would be far less fun.
 
Ha!!! No doubt. One thing I've noticed from people that reply to the dilution forums that say they have no problems, pretty much all of them have been using 93 octane. I wonder why that would make a difference with dilution? Better combustion burning?? One member on here over at the UOA site is using Amsoil 0W-20 ss and has pretty good analysis from what all I just read. I don't know if I'll go down the analysis interstate, but I may start changing the oil around 5K. As much as the wife drives, she's a traveling RN, I'll be changing out the oil every 2 months versus the 4.5 month intervals set according to the MM. That could get expensive since I have to let the dealer change it, about 45 dollars, in order to keep the engines for life with their in-house warranty. But, what price to pay for added insurance? Or maybe to keep me from worrying about this? I really need to see what's all in the Honda 0W-20 oils they are using. I really think Honda could solve this in two ways....1.) start telling everyone to use 93 octane (you know how that would go over to the general public) and 2.) move up to a 5W-30 oil. In that way, if the engine does see some dilution, the engine would be protected until the MM came on. Face it, we here at BITOG are anal about all things oil, must people don't even know where the dipstick or hood releases are.
 
That CST viscosity is a little unnerving, however I would continue using 0w20 per Honda's recommendation. At least until the warranty expires.
 
DOCACC, consider this maybe: Start with M1 AFE 0w30 at KV100=10.9. Say it drops by -4.2 in 7,500 miles. (That's the same rate of drop, over mo' miles this time, as yours did in 4400 miles.)
That means you end up with an ending KV100 of 10.9-4.2=6.9, higher than what you ended with here on the 2.0T. I think a little oxidation will happen on a 7500 mile OCI, so your ending KV100 might be closer to 7.3 or so, either 6.9 or 7.3 is more acceptable, since the spec'ed 0w20 KV100 fresh is 8.4.
 
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Originally Posted by Schmoe
Ha!!! No doubt. One thing I've noticed from people that reply to the dilution forums that say they have no problems, pretty much all of them have been using 93 octane. I wonder why that would make a difference with dilution? Better combustion burning?? One member on here over at the UOA site is using Amsoil 0W-20 ss and has pretty good analysis from what all I just read. I don't know if I'll go down the analysis interstate, but I may start changing the oil around 5K. As much as the wife drives, she's a traveling RN, I'll be changing out the oil every 2 months versus the 4.5 month intervals set according to the MM. That could get expensive since I have to let the dealer change it, about 45 dollars, in order to keep the engines for life with their in-house warranty. But, what price to pay for added insurance? Or maybe to keep me from worrying about this? I really need to see what's all in the Honda 0W-20 oils they are using. I really think Honda could solve this in two ways....1.) start telling everyone to use 93 octane (you know how that would go over to the general public) and 2.) move up to a 5W-30 oil. In that way, if the engine does see some dilution, the engine would be protected until the MM came on. Face it, we here at BITOG are anal about all things oil, must people don't even know where the dipstick or hood releases are.


DI engines can run at higher compression ratios on 87 octane fuel because the evaporation of the fuel charge in the combustion chamber has a cooling effect, which minimizes spark knock. So speculation is that when these engines sense spark knock (not LSPI, which is a different phenomenon) the response is to enrich the fuel/air mixture instead of retarding engine timing. A richer mixture in turn would lead to more fuel dilution. 91/93 octane would reduce the number of spark knock events.

My personal experience with a Honda K24W was that it would show substantial fuel dilution and increased sump levels even when the oil sample was taken immediately after a very long Interstate trip, especially if into a brisk headwind. Using higher octane fuel seems to help a lot, though I still need a UOA to confirm. In the interest of fuel economy autos are geared for very low highway RPM, so they may be operating on the verge of spark knock more than we'd expect.

A 30-weight oil is probably a good idea, though there's the warranty issue that has been debated here forever. And I wonder if a 30-weigh oil might provide a slightly better piston ring/cylinder wall seal as well.
 
If I had a lifetime warranty on the engine if the dealer does the change, I think that I may change the oil/filter at 50% MM (around 5000 miles) but not reset the MM. I would then go into the dealer when the MM says to do so and let them change it. So I would change every other change and they would change every other change. As long as you use a honda oil filter, they won't know. But I am sneaky that way.
 
I find it interesting that with the hysteria about Honda's high fuel dilution, that no one has commented on how it effect the wear values. I have yet to see a bad UOA from a Honda 1.5L turbo engine after the FF. Ed
 
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