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Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC #4884900
10/01/18 07:41 PM
10/01/18 07:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 332
Greenville SC
George Bynum Offline OP
George Bynum  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 332
Greenville SC
Is anyone following this? 27-September

2 pilots dead, 2 passengers seriously injured. Local television said tonight that:

Pilot's certification only as SIC; earlier reports were that he had over 10,000 hours

Right seat "person" only had a private SEL license, not even IFR. Said to have over 5,000 hours. Those hours without IFR rating is puzzling.

Runway was marginal length (5393 ft per AirNav) for the aircraft.

I wonder how much faith to put in the media?

Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4884930
10/01/18 07:58 PM
10/01/18 07:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,841
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,841
Virginia Beach
You can expect the first report in the media to have about 50% accuracy.

Reporters have told us that the "Flux Capacitor" failed, or that the pilot's names were "Sum Ting Wong,' 'Wi Tu Lo,' 'Ho Lee Fuk,' and 'Bang Ding Ow".

Having met a reporter recently, she was aghast at the idea that she KNOW anything about the news...it's just her job to "report" it...meaning read the copy placed in front of her.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4884984
10/01/18 08:36 PM
10/01/18 08:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,837
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,837
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I'd agree with Astro. You get it anything even slightly technical, particularly from a mechanical, technological, scientific/mathematical, or legal perspective, and the journalists are hopelessly lost. You read them off one of Mr. Scott's Star Trek technobabble speeches about why the Enterprise can't move, they'll reprint it verbatim as fact.


Plain, simple Garak.

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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Garak] #4885030
10/01/18 09:16 PM
10/01/18 09:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,079
KY
MCompact Offline
MCompact  Offline

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,079
KY
Originally Posted by Garak
I'd agree with Astro. You get it anything even slightly technical, particularly from a mechanical, technological, scientific/mathematical, or legal perspective, and the journalists are hopelessly lost. You read them off one of Mr. Scott's Star Trek technobabble speeches about why the Enterprise can't move, they'll reprint it verbatim as fact.


I can personally confirm the average reporter's lack of legal knowledge- and their overriding mantra is: " Never let the facts get in the way of a good story."


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: MCompact] #4885063
10/01/18 10:04 PM
10/01/18 10:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,837
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,837
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Some of the things I see printed on local news just makes me shake my head. OT, but there was a time when a crime reporter had to attend court every day and pay attention to the docket and sit in docket court here.


Plain, simple Garak.

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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4885185
10/02/18 05:48 AM
10/02/18 05:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,251
Coastal South Carolina
edwardh1 Offline
edwardh1  Offline

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,251
Coastal South Carolina
Originally Posted by George Bynum
Is anyone following this? 27-September

2 pilots dead, 2 passengers seriously injured. Local television said tonight that:

Pilot's certification only as SIC; earlier reports were that he had over 10,000 hours

Right seat "person" only had a private SEL license, not even IFR. Said to have over 5,000 hours. Those hours without IFR rating is puzzling.

Runway was marginal length (5393 ft per AirNav) for the aircraft.

I wonder how much faith to put in the media?



people dont know what sic and sel are or how close marginal was

Last edited by edwardh1; 10/02/18 05:49 AM.

These products are all new every year?? They are a revolution!!! Razor blades, mens shirts, TVs, wiper blades, gutter guards, hearing aids... according to the ads. But also all new last year
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4885197
10/02/18 06:33 AM
10/02/18 06:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,568
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Online content
Cujet  Online Content

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,568
Jupiter, Florida
For those who don’t know, the Falcon 50 is a very nice airplane to fly. It has effective leading edge devices, and a single (center engine only) “thrust reverser” . It also has a variable flight control “feel” system known as “Arthur Q”

This leads to an airplane that is pleasingly responsive at both high and low speeds, so it’s both fun and easy to maneuver. It’s approach speeds are reasonable (low) due to the effective leading edge devices and good flaps.

I’m not here to claim the Falcon 50 is easy to operate, as it’s a complex jet. But it is easier to manage on takeoff and landing, due to very reasonable and comfortable speeds and handling, than nearly all of it’s competition due to the above mentioned systems.

There have been center engine TR failures, where the TR “buckets” failed to deploy and the engine spools up, leading to the center engine pushing the plane off the end of the runway. I don’t have any idea if that happened here.

Despite the center engine only TR, the Falcon 50 can get into and out of short runways that other jets can’t.

Last edited by Cujet; 10/02/18 06:35 AM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4885248
10/02/18 08:10 AM
10/02/18 08:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,793
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,793
OH
So, neither of these guys were legally or practically qualified to operate the aircraft, much less type-rated in it?
This begs the question of how this duo got their hands on this aircraft to begin with.
This wasn't exactly grandma's Apache after all.
Would love to hear the laughter when the owners try to submit the insurance claim.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4885284
10/02/18 09:05 AM
10/02/18 09:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,999
CA
spackard Offline
spackard  Offline

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,999
CA
Not trying to derail this thread, but it's unusual for two planes to crash, from the same airport (Brackett Field), about 100 yards from each other, in two days.
https://abc7.com/plane-crashes-near-brackett-field-airport-in-la-verne;-1-killed/4384834/
https://www.sgvtribune.com/2018/10/...ne-crash-second-fatal-crash-in-two-days/

Sunday before 6p: Cessna 177RG, practicing approaches, engine problem
Monday 11:50a: Bonanza V35, during approach, possibly clipped a tree

Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: fdcg27] #4885368
10/02/18 11:04 AM
10/02/18 11:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,637
Arkansas
Win Offline
Win  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,637
Arkansas
Quote
..... This begs the question of how this duo got their hands on this aircraft to begin with.
This wasn't exactly grandma's Apache after all. .......


"FAA records show that the plane is owned by Global Aircraft Acquisitions LLC of Delaware."

Wild guess is they were leasing it and running a charter company with it.

There may ( or may not ) be multiple layers of insurance with different conditions of coverage. If a lease or mortgage, it's hard to believe a lease company or note holder would accept hull insurance that had any coverage restrictions that might prevent payout on a hull loss.

Insurance covering the pilots, passengers, airport damage, etc., might be a problem.

Some people are scrupulous about things. Some people aren't. I've known quite a few people over the years that I suspect would not consider certs to be a deal breaker to fly something if they felt otherwise competent to fly it. That's why I suspect basic hull coverage would not be highly conditioned. But that's just a guess, no experience in this industry ....

Quote
....There have been center engine TR failures, where the TR “buckets” failed to deploy and the engine spools up, leading to the center engine pushing the plane off the end of the runway. I don’t have any idea if that happened here.


..... "Frasher said one of the pilots was unconscious, lying on the throttle after the jet crashed. He said a window had to be broken to throttle back the jet." .....


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Win] #4885386
10/02/18 11:28 AM
10/02/18 11:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,568
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Online content
Cujet  Online Content

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,568
Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted by Win
[quote] I've known quite a few people over the years that I suspect would not consider certs to be a deal breaker to fly something if they felt otherwise competent to fly it.


I've seen that too. Interestingly, that's exactly when problems occur. I avoid such people. Not because I'm "anti freedom" or some such nonsense, but because there is a direct relationship between those types of risk takers and trouble.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Win] #4885728
10/02/18 05:43 PM
10/02/18 05:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,793
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,793
OH
I dunno.
I kind of doubt that there'd be any hull loss coverage in the event of the aircraft being leased to some guys who claimed they could fly it even though they didn't posses the required certs.
Aircraft do overrun runways from time to time, even airliners operated by fully qualified crews working for well known first world airlines.
Still, leasing an aircraft to be operated by a crew not legally qualified to operate it and then expecting hull loss compensation is going to be a hard sell.
I really doubt that any layer of whatever coverage the leasing company may have has anything in their contract of coverage saying "Sure, just flip the keys to anyone who claims to be a jet jock and we're okay with it. You're covered."
You can't even rent a few hours in a C172 that's had the wings flown off of it as a trainer for the past decade or two without showing your license, ratings and log book and may even be required to take some dual with an instructor as a check ride. No FBO wants to see any pilot wreck their airplane and kill themselves in the process.
I'd expect that the requirements to lease a high zoot bizjet would be a little more stringent, with maybe some sim time required for the prospective pilots and this process will be at least partly ruled by the insurers.


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: George Bynum] #4886494
10/03/18 01:59 PM
10/03/18 01:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,568
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Online content
Cujet  Online Content

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,568
Jupiter, Florida
Good god, there is a video of it at the overrun. It was really moving (before the very sudden stop) and it sure looked like the gear was up.

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/vi...-greenville-downtown-airport/1502776002/

Last edited by Cujet; 10/03/18 02:01 PM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Cujet] #4886860
10/03/18 09:38 PM
10/03/18 09:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,841
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,841
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by Cujet
Good god, there is a video of it at the overrun. It was really moving (before the very sudden stop) and it sure looked like the gear was up.

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/vi...-greenville-downtown-airport/1502776002/


That's a frightening video...it's got to be doing 80 knots as it leaves the runway.

As if the spoilers and reversers weren't used on landing...


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Re: Dassault Falcon 50 crash in Greenville SC [Re: Astro14] #4886871
10/03/18 10:08 PM
10/03/18 10:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,999
Sequim, WA
edhackett Offline
edhackett  Offline

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,999
Sequim, WA
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by Cujet
Good god, there is a video of it at the overrun. It was really moving (before the very sudden stop) and it sure looked like the gear was up.

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/vi...-greenville-downtown-airport/1502776002/


That's a frightening video...it's got to be doing 80 knots as it leaves the runway.

As if the spoilers and reversers weren't used on landing...


There's a flash at the rear of the plane about a quarter to a third of the way in. Just the sun flashing off the horizontal stabilizer or maybe and engine problem?

Ed


Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.
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