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Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #4880390 09/26/18 08:30 PM
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StevieC Offline
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*Yawn* You done yet?


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Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: StevieC] #4880428 09/26/18 08:53 PM
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Shannow Offline OP
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I'll re-iterate....smoking gun for what...?

The paper is about..."the effects of Viscosity on Heavy Duty Engine Components".


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #4880458 09/26/18 09:12 PM
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nap Offline
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Here’s a different one

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15003709

that may have the effect of rejoicing the thin camp. The thicker oil produced less iron but sensibly more lead in the UOA.


B4654F36-CBDE-462F-960A-D6566CE7477E.jpeg
Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: StevieC] #4880633 09/27/18 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Shannow
Yeah, you stated in the other thread(s) that as the studies aren't all engines and all circumstances, that they were equivalent to wild suppositions based on imagined engines, and imagined operational circumstances.

I disagree.

As I said in the other thread. Does it warrant more investigation sure, is it a smoking gun for all situation absolutely not.


It doesn't need "more investigation" ... it's been studied and tested for decades and the conclusion is still pretty much the same - higher viscosity/higher HTHS typically gives better wear protection.

Saying that the studies and their conclusions don't have any merit because it hasnt been "tested in every engine in every circumstances" known to exist in the world is another strawman argument.

Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: nap] #4880636 09/27/18 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by nap
Here’s a different one

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15003709

that may have the effect of rejoicing the thin camp. The thicker oil produced less iron but sensibly more lead in the UOA.


Lots of miles (km) on those oil runs - and the wear deviation starts showing up after 10 km. Did they take KV100 and HTHS readings as the miles piled up to see if the 10W-40 sheared down below the 5W-30? Lead wear would be journal bearings I would assume.

Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: ZeeOSix] #4880843 09/27/18 09:13 AM
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nap Offline
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Lots of miles (km) on those oil runs - and the wear deviation starts showing up after 10 km. Did they take KV100 and HTHS readings as the miles piled up to see if the 10W-40 sheared down below the 5W-30? Lead wear would be journal bearings I would assume.


The explanation offered by the authors is "The most feasible explanation could be linked to additive depletion. For oil B, after 20,000 km anti‐wear additives have been almost absolutely depleted (FT‐IR measurements have been performed to assess this situation) and an acidic attack against Babbitt metals appears leading to the situation previously mentioned. In the case of the LVO, the higher content of anti‐wear additives, let to obtain a longer period of usage where this corrosive wear is under control, obtaining very low lead wear rates."

Which may lead someone to be cautious with the latest iterations of consumer oil standards.... laugh



Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: nap] #4881276 09/27/18 04:08 PM
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Shannow Offline OP
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nap, really good dot point that...additives at work.

It's consistent with the start-up wear statements here
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/600190/

Predominantly corrosion, not "flow"

I've posted stuff on hastening warmup before, think this, but will have to scout through the library over the weekend.
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2011-01-0318/

(But suffice to say that thicker oil will heat faster...LOL)


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #4890545 10/08/18 01:26 AM
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So, would the oil heat up faster in say a 7 bearing 6, as opposed to a 3 bearing crank 4 cyl of similar capacity ? Of course the 4 cyl is going to have larger journals which could just make it the same anyway.


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Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Silk] #4892469 10/10/18 03:24 AM
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Would say so...look at the bottom end of a slant 6, or 4 main ford versus the 7 bearings, and the mains aren't materially larger in total dimension than the 7s.

But the piston skirt area is a pretty big "bearing" area for heat to e generated, diminishing the effect of the mains.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #4893037 10/10/18 02:52 PM
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Uh ... haven't 4-bearing in-line Sixes been obsolete for a very long time (a little less long for the Slant Six)? 3-bearing in-line Fours, too? GM, Ford, and AMC all switched to then-new 7-bearing Sixes in the early- to mid-1960s in the US.

Last edited by CR94; 10/10/18 02:54 PM.

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Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: CR94] #4893273 10/10/18 06:31 PM
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Was still a valid question, worth answering...


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #4893536 10/11/18 02:04 AM
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In my mind I had a 149 Holden and a large British 4 cyl...large BMC, Rootes and Standard were still made at that time the 7 bearing Holden came out. There just seems to be a lot more going on in an inline 6 than a 3 bearing 4 to heat up oil. What's obsolete got to do with anything ?


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1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #4901760 10/21/18 08:36 AM
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Decades ago, engineers learned that direct measurement was required when testing wear rates. UOA's, while helpful, do not reflect individual wear rates.

I worked for Mobil OIl in their flight department. I worked with the Mobil engineers on SHC100 grease testing and on Mobil 245 turbine engine oil. This was real world testing on Mobil Oil's flight department fleet. With very specific testing protocols. The scanning electron microscope and other forms of very precise measurement were the best ways to determine wear rates.

I was a young guy and always found time to chat with the engineers about the processes and results. It was amazing to see how they could accurately determine bearing wear rates on perfectly serviceable bearings.

What we consider UOA; mass spectrometry, was interesting information, but did not reflect real world wear, and especially wear of individual components.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #5421554 05/05/20 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Shannow


I've posted stuff on hastening warmup before, think this, but will have to scout through the library over the weekend.
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2011-01-0318/

(But suffice to say that thicker oil will heat faster...LOL)


EGR coolers do this, and then we have in nearly all turbocharged engines and oil/coolant heat exchanger. The heat exchangers have limited capacity of course, but every Watt helps during warm-up.


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Re: Low Viscosity Effect on Heavy Duty Engine Components [Re: Shannow] #5422140 05/05/20 10:31 PM
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It's interesting that they didn't encounter any problems in the bearings with the low-viscosity oil.

My understanding is that the ring wear is determined by the base-oil viscosity (including the additive package), not the HTHS viscosity, the latter of which is raised by the VII. This is because it is primarily boundary lubrication. A 15W-40 has a much higher base-oil viscosity than a regular 10W-30.

A better comparison would be to make a nearly VII-free 10W-30 with a high base-oil viscosity using synthetic base stocks and study that. Alternatively you can study a SAE 30 monograde oil. I bet you wouldn't see as much difference in the ring wear if you study a SAE 30 monograde or a nearly monograde SAE 10W-30.


Last edited by MolaKule; 05/08/20 06:36 PM.

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