Redline 15w40: Low or Mid Saps?

[SavagePatch]

Is Redline 15w40 a Low Saps or Mid Saps diesel oil?

I couldn't figure it out from their PDS so I emailed them and asked. However, their response didn't really answer my question and it seems like it was a result of them having an outdated data base since the oil they recommended is the OLD EcoDiesel spec. The NEW spec is, from memory, 5w40 Synthetic CJ-4 CES 20081 with RT6 recommended.

Thanks in advance!

 

[JAG]

Low and mid SAPS can mean different things to different people. What matters is the max. sulfated ash and phosphorus allowed by the oil specification that your oil must adhere to. If it is what you said, it is 1% ash and 1200 PPM (0.12%) phosphorus. Sulfur limit is 0.4% but I wouldn't concern myself with that...maybe you want to.

That Amsoil has 1% ash and according to this UOA, it has around 1020 PPM phosphorus. I think it fits the bill. If sulfur concerns you, ask them how much it has. Most importantly, make sure what spec., your oil must meet. If it's not CJ-4 or CJ-4, check the limits on whatever it is.

 

[SavagePatch]

I double checked, here's the recommendation from FCA:

 

[Garak]

All CJ-4 E7, E9 lubricants have SA of 1.0 or less (CK-4, too, of course), as per those specifications. You can actually check the ACEA specs at Lubrizol or the ACEA's own site, and it shows those limits. As JAG mentions, low and mid SAPS are different things to different people and when looking at different market segments. E9 is called mid SAPS by Lubrizol and the ACEA. E7 ensures that the TBN remains above 9.0.

Just about every CJ-4 and CK-4 lube I've come across will have SA at 0.99 or 1.0, even the E6 low phosphorous lubes.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted by SavagePatch
Is Redline 15w40 a Low Saps or Mid Saps diesel oil?

I couldn't figure it out from their PDS so I emailed them and asked. However, their response didn't really answer my question and it seems like it was a result of them having an outdated data base since the oil they recommended is the OLD EcoDiesel spec. The NEW spec is, from memory, 5w40 Synthetic CJ-4 CES 20081 with RT6 recommended.

Thanks in advance!

The Redline guys are quoting the ORIGINAL low SAPS Ecodiesel spec-which has been changed to CJ-4, mid SAPS (as stated above), which pretty much means any diesel HDEO will work. Too many bearing failures with the low SAPS Euro oil. At 1% SA, the Redline is a mid-SAPS oil,

 

[SavagePatch]

Thanks for the responses!

@Bullwinkle: Ok, so I was wrong in thinking that I needed a low SAPS oil and actually only need a mid SAPS oil which Redline 15w40 and almost every other current (CJ-4/CK-4) HDEO meet?

 

[Bailes1992]

The FCA reccomendation mentions A3/B4 which is a non SAPS limited oil.

 

[Garak]

SavagePatch: Note what Bailes1992 mentioned about A3/B4 as another possibility. That's just a good reminder to everyone that A3/B4 is also dual rated; it's just not always the most cost effective option.

 

[CleverUserName]

The RL 40c/100c specs and VI remind me of the old D1 ESP CJ-4 version, except RL has the super high HTHS of 4.7 cP. That's kinda overkill for truck towing 9K Lbs max.

@ $13/qt, thats going to be like a $160-170 oil change with the expensive OEM Mopar oil Filter. Ouch!

 

[SavagePatch]

Garak: I quickly looked into using a A3/B4 but couldn't find any that also met MS-10902/CES-20081. I also couldn't find any examples of anyone who was using it.

 

[SavagePatch]

Originally Posted by CleverUserName
The RL 40c/100c specs and VI remind me of the old D1 ESP CJ-4 version, except RL has the super high HTHS of 4.7 cP. That's kinda overkill for truck towing 9K Lbs max.

@ $13/qt, thats going to be like a $160-170 oil change with the expensive OEM Mopar oil Filter. Ouch!


I agree with everything you said. If I wasn't able to source the Redline 15w40 for cheaper than a RT6 OCI then I wouldn't have even considered it. I do tow with the EcoDiesel and saw temp oil spikes of 260°, close to the max where limp mode kicks in. That made me change from a 5w40 Synthetic with HTHS of 3.8 to my current fill of a 15w40 Synblend with HTHS of 4.3.

As far as oil filters go, I use after market filters for about $10 each. Sure wish Fram made an Ultra for it.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by SavagePatch
Garak: I quickly looked into using a A3/B4 but couldn't find any that also met MS-10902/CES-20081. I also couldn't find any examples of anyone who was using it.

You won't find one. That's why they wording uses "or" so many times. That numbered spec will require an HDEO with a C type API spec, like CJ-4, CK-4. Think of the A3/B4 as a higher SA option, closer to a CI-4. I'd assume the Red Line won't have the Chrysler specification itself, either, though it should meet or exceed.

 

[SavagePatch]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by SavagePatch
Garak: I quickly looked into using a A3/B4 but couldn't find any that also met MS-10902/CES-20081. I also couldn't find any examples of anyone who was using it.

You won't find one. That's why they wording uses "or" so many times. That numbered spec will require an HDEO with a C type API spec, like CJ-4, CK-4. Think of the A3/B4 as a higher SA option, closer to a CI-4. I'd assume the Red Line won't have the Chrysler specification itself, either, though it should meet or exceed.


Ok, I got ya.

I read it as:

Must meet MS-10902 and then one of these in addition
A) API CJ-4
B) ACEA E9/E7
C) ACEA A3/B4

BUT it actually reads:

Must meet
A) MS-10902 and API CJ-4
or
B) ACEA E9/E7
or
C) ACEA A3/B4

 

[benjy]

you can call redline + talk to a real person which may get more up to date info, its easier + quicker for sure!!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by SavagePatch
BUT it actually reads:

Must meet
A) MS-10902 and API CJ-4
or
B) ACEA E9/E7
or
C) ACEA A3/B4


That's the way I'd actually read it, too. Of course, to start, anything with the Cummins/FCA spec is the best way to go, and those will already be CJ-4 or CK-4. Many of them will also be E7, E9 as well. It's ironic how Chrysler actually makes it simpler than Ford.

Then again, the Cummins spec is all over the place.

 

[zeng]

CES-20081 are HDEO specs that usually carries API Cx4 too .
I'm yet to come across an A3B4 that carries CES-20081, though it could be available somewhere, IDK.

Edit:Oops ....

 

[Bailes1992]

With those options I'd be tempted to just throw Castrol Edge 0w40 A3/B4 in the sump.

 

[Garak]

That would be an option, but some approved oils that are also HDEOs will be available in 5 gallon pails in the States, which would make life easier/cheaper for some. At least we don't have to buy all A3/B4 options in 1 litre bottles like before.

 

[SavagePatch]

So I ended up getting 11 single quart bottles of Redline 15w40 CJ-4 for $52. My truck calls for 10.5qts. If it wasn't cheaper than I could buy RT6 at WalMart without chasing rebates I wouldn't have purchased it. I'll be running it next camping season for 10k OCI (been doing 5k) and will report back with a UOA. I'll have the Mystik JT8 15-40 UOA soon.

What I find odd is that the older CJ-4 PDS and newer CK-4 PDS are almost identical. Do you think Redline even changed the formula or just the PDS/bottle?

 

[dustyroads]

Looks like they only added CK-4 and that's it. The oil properties look the same but they haven't listed the engine manufacturer's upgraded specs (Volvo/Mack 4.5, Detroit's 93K222 and Cummins 20086).

They may be satisfied that they meet CK-4 with the formula they already had and called it good?