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Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles #4877542
09/24/18 09:58 AM
09/24/18 09:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline OP
StevieC  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
Does anyone know the typical particle size / range for the Direct Injection soot loading into the oil?

Can't seem to find any information on it.


'18 Caravan - 36k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877563
09/24/18 10:20 AM
09/24/18 10:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,680
The Midwest
skyactiv Offline
skyactiv  Offline

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,680
The Midwest
All I know is that gasoline engines will have a particulate exhaust filter and use urea fluid like modern diesel engines do in the not to distant future.


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual

Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877566
09/24/18 10:21 AM
09/24/18 10:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,508
California
Vuflanovsky Offline
Vuflanovsky  Offline

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,508
California
I'm not sure you can use the word typical but the below was from a 2015 study from sciencedirect.com that I couldn't link. I've seen other studies with similar information so I think they're out there...

• Soot-in-oil particles extracted from used lubricating oil of GDI engines.
• Soot in oil shows modest branching with average length of 153 nm and 59 nm in width.
• Soot spherical primary particles of 10–90 nm form the agglomerates.
• Primary particles exhibit an amorphous shell structure of 5 nm.
• Volatile structures were found to be deposited onto the surface of primary particles.

Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: Vuflanovsky] #4877574
09/24/18 10:25 AM
09/24/18 10:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline OP
StevieC  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
Originally Posted by Vuflanovsky
I'm not sure you can use the word typical but the below was from a 2015 study from sciencedirect.com that I couldn't link. I've seen other studies with similar information so I think they're out there...


I wasn't able to find any information so that's why I said typical as I was unsure at this point but assumed there might be a typical size or range sort of thing. Thanks for the info you provided. thumbsup

I'm guessing with the particles being too small to filter, that oil changed more frequently would be better than other factors like brand / add package etc. to limit the abrasiveness over time.




Last edited by StevieC; 09/24/18 10:28 AM.

'18 Caravan - 36k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877603
09/24/18 10:56 AM
09/24/18 10:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 4,672
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 4,672
MN
http://bioage.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4fbe53ef01b7c8fb66a9970b-popup and zoom in on the "Soot particles" text on the poster art.
I thought I'd seen a tech paper in the past that said you could get up to 1 micron or so. Oil filters only get out stuff down to about 10 microns at best. A bypass oil filter can get out a few of the soot particles, probably nothing near all.

Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: skyactiv] #4877607
09/24/18 11:00 AM
09/24/18 11:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
HKPolice Offline
HKPolice  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by skyactiv
All I know is that gasoline engines will have a particulate exhaust filter and use urea fluid like modern diesel engines do in the not to distant future.


Are you talking about the skyactiv-x HCCI engine? I don't remember that being mentioned during the tech reveal.

Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877608
09/24/18 11:03 AM
09/24/18 11:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,508
California
Vuflanovsky Offline
Vuflanovsky  Offline

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,508
California
Yeah, I'm no scientist but I'd speculate that these particulate size figures and content could vary based on several things...so apples to apples comparisons might be difficult.

I've seen distinctions between wall-guided and spray-guided GDI and references to more ethanol content generating more water-insoluble matter than fuel with lower ethanol content, etc. I'm sure if differences like those aren't controlled versus some other study you'd potentially have to be aware of what you're looking at to a more significant degree than a typical layman.

Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877619
09/24/18 11:14 AM
09/24/18 11:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,188
WA
Brigadier Offline
Brigadier  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,188
WA


2017 Hyundai Santa Fe SE, 3.3L, AWD, QSUD 5w30, OEM filter, Hy-per Lube ZRA

https://www.pure-gas.org/ << Wake up your engine!!

Where the stars and stripes and the eagle fly
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877623
09/24/18 11:18 AM
09/24/18 11:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,188
WA
Brigadier Offline
Brigadier  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,188
WA


2017 Hyundai Santa Fe SE, 3.3L, AWD, QSUD 5w30, OEM filter, Hy-per Lube ZRA

https://www.pure-gas.org/ << Wake up your engine!!

Where the stars and stripes and the eagle fly
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877626
09/24/18 11:20 AM
09/24/18 11:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,188
WA
Brigadier Offline
Brigadier  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,188
WA
Timing chain wear due to GDI soot is one of the reasons for G2 dexos1 IMO.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...ear-ll-01-and-moly-as-remedy#Post4862406


2017 Hyundai Santa Fe SE, 3.3L, AWD, QSUD 5w30, OEM filter, Hy-per Lube ZRA

https://www.pure-gas.org/ << Wake up your engine!!

Where the stars and stripes and the eagle fly
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877837
09/24/18 03:04 PM
09/24/18 03:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,187
Southern Vermont
k1xv Offline
k1xv  Offline

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,187
Southern Vermont
Diesel engines put enormous amounts of soot in their motor oil. I note that Chevrolet now recommends Mobil 1 0-40 ESP for the DI Corvette. This oil is a Dexos2, the "diesel" Dexos.

When I change the oil in my DI Corvette, the used oil does not look particularly sooty.

Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877860
09/24/18 03:22 PM
09/24/18 03:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,082
Pennsylvania
Boomer Offline
Boomer  Offline

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,082
Pennsylvania
Just as in the Corvette noted above, the oil in my Golf All Track, a 2017 DI engine, does not look particularly sooty but then I have been changing the oil (see signature) at 5000 mile intervals. I do see soot in the tailpipe, however. I run this car on mid-grade Exxon fuel with an occasional fillup with 93 octane if I am travelling a good distance at speed and/or through mountains. This engine responds very well to the mid-grade and higher octanes.


2013 VW Passat TDI SE, 68,100 miles Castrol Professional VW507 5W-30
2017 VW Golf All Track 21,170 miles Castrol Professional VW505 5W-40
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877875
09/24/18 03:35 PM
09/24/18 03:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline OP
StevieC  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
I think with gasoline engine particles in DI engines being so tiny as noted above you would really have to be running it for a while to notice it in amber coloured oil and by then a lot of damage could be done because they are really abrasive when the numbers get too high.

This is why I wanted to know what the size was because I was hoping filtration would be able to take care of it but I think it's just going to have to be shorter OCI's. Although Toyota says 10,000 miles (16,000km) is acceptable in normal use so...


'18 Caravan - 36k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4877932
09/24/18 04:28 PM
09/24/18 04:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,177
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,177
'Stralia
It's the new asbestos...
Just saying, I've been researching it for a while now.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: Soot loading from DI engines - Size of particles [Re: StevieC] #4878068
09/24/18 07:14 PM
09/24/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline OP
StevieC  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,014
ON, Canada eh?
Yeah I don't doubt it is. Even Diesel fumes pre particulate filters was known to kill people earlier that lived near busy roads like interstates / highways.


'18 Caravan - 36k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
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