Originally Posted by Pelican
Great video Stevie !!
Great video Stevie !!
Inside an automatic transmission
- Thread starter StevieC
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted by StevieC
This is why you want clean fluid at all times in your transmission and no transmission should be "Sealed for life" look at all the moving parts and all the metal on metal contact going on in here...
Very nice presentation Stevie. Regards to you sir.
This is why you want clean fluid at all times in your transmission and no transmission should be "Sealed for life" look at all the moving parts and all the metal on metal contact going on in here...
Very nice presentation Stevie. Regards to you sir.
Our 2017 Ford Explorer with the "150,000 mile service" "sealed transmission" is receiving much more frequent drain and fill's since they are real easy to do and cost $20 using Motorcraft Mercon LV. We keep our new vehicle for a LONG time so if I can cheaply avoid an expensive repair I will. This 6F35 transmission does not have a pan and seems to beat up the Mercon LV quickly. This compared to other Ford transmissions that also use the Mercon LV but have pans that help with cooling the ATF and keeping it from turning black in less than 10,000 miles. Oh, and Steve, great video!
Whimsey
Whimsey
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I stick with my 30K pan drops, filter changes and line exchanges. Using only mfg. approved fluids.
Me too.
My BIL is a powertrain engineer, who has worked for Ford, GM, Chrysler and Borg-Warner. Among engineers, sealed for life is considered to be much lower risk. Many of the failed transmissions that they get back for analysis contain shop rag lint, which has contaminated passageways and solenoids. Mechanics introduce dirt and kill transmissions is the thinking among engineers.
Perhaps careless ones do.
But I will stick with changing fluid regularly.
+1
I would say a lot of the failures have to do with people who don't know what they are doing, like you mentioned. Incorrect fluid, improper levels, filters not tightened enough so the pump can't pick up the fluid, power flushes, etc.
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I stick with my 30K pan drops, filter changes and line exchanges. Using only mfg. approved fluids.
Me too.
My BIL is a powertrain engineer, who has worked for Ford, GM, Chrysler and Borg-Warner. Among engineers, sealed for life is considered to be much lower risk. Many of the failed transmissions that they get back for analysis contain shop rag lint, which has contaminated passageways and solenoids. Mechanics introduce dirt and kill transmissions is the thinking among engineers.
Perhaps careless ones do.
But I will stick with changing fluid regularly.
+1
I would say a lot of the failures have to do with people who don't know what they are doing, like you mentioned. Incorrect fluid, improper levels, filters not tightened enough so the pump can't pick up the fluid, power flushes, etc.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I stick with my 30K pan drops, filter changes and line exchanges. Using only mfg. approved fluids. Sealed for life is a joke in my opinion.
I'm the same. Especially in transmissions that don't have serviceable filters.
Our little red Chevy Sonic is that away . One of the reasons , at ~ 54,500 miles , we have done 2 drain & spills and considering another . Do not wish that non-DIY filter / screen to get a chance to stop up !
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I stick with my 30K pan drops, filter changes and line exchanges. Using only mfg. approved fluids. Sealed for life is a joke in my opinion.
I'm the same. Especially in transmissions that don't have serviceable filters.
Our little red Chevy Sonic is that away . One of the reasons , at ~ 54,500 miles , we have done 2 drain & spills and considering another . Do not wish that non-DIY filter / screen to get a chance to stop up !
Originally Posted by Reddy45
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
Would it hurt the engineers that much to go back to putting a drain plug in the torque converter ? How about a drain plug in the pan ?
Some one else mentioned an external spin on filter , also .
I have alway heard a car is designed to last until the warranty expires and the original owner makes the final payment . Then it is time to seel him / her an new one .
The Allison transmissions used in heavy duty GM trucks have spin on oil filters. I wish this was the case on every transmission, but then you'd need to put dip sticks back on all of them so you can top up the fluid (since the old filter would have some fluid in it upon removal).
Yes , dip sticks , too . Our little red Chevy Sonic does not have that either ! :-(
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
Would it hurt the engineers that much to go back to putting a drain plug in the torque converter ? How about a drain plug in the pan ?
Some one else mentioned an external spin on filter , also .
I have alway heard a car is designed to last until the warranty expires and the original owner makes the final payment . Then it is time to seel him / her an new one .
The Allison transmissions used in heavy duty GM trucks have spin on oil filters. I wish this was the case on every transmission, but then you'd need to put dip sticks back on all of them so you can top up the fluid (since the old filter would have some fluid in it upon removal).
Yes , dip sticks , too . Our little red Chevy Sonic does not have that either ! :-(
I was under the impression that automatics fail because of clutches not gears. I may be wrong.
IMO keeping fresh fluid in will keep the tranny quiet, but would not prevent clutch wear (with proper filtration).
IMO keeping fresh fluid in will keep the tranny quiet, but would not prevent clutch wear (with proper filtration).
Clutches are the main failures I have seen, then bands that have stretched / worn, then it would be sticking valves in the valve body, and then broken planetary gears. At least from the ones we have rebuilt.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Clutches are the main failures I have seen, then bands that have stretched / worn, then it would be sticking valves in the valve body, and then broken planetary gears. At least from the ones we have rebuilt.
How well do ZF units hold up?
Clutches are the main failures I have seen, then bands that have stretched / worn, then it would be sticking valves in the valve body, and then broken planetary gears. At least from the ones we have rebuilt.
How well do ZF units hold up?
Haven't seen any come our way so I couldn't tell you.
I wonder what the guts of the new Ford / GM 10-speed must look like. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Sure wish the auto makers hadn't done away with the trans dipstick. I hate not being able to check stuff on my car.
Sure wish the auto makers hadn't done away with the trans dipstick. I hate not being able to check stuff on my car.
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I wonder what the guts of the new Ford / GM 10-speed must look like. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Sure wish the auto makers hadn't done away with the trans dipstick. I hate not being able to check stuff on my car.
Probably not... Same as any other but most likely with multi-level lock-up modes so that they can change the speed by choosing to lock-up across more than just the final gear. That's what my 8 speed Highlander transmission does.
I wonder what the guts of the new Ford / GM 10-speed must look like. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Sure wish the auto makers hadn't done away with the trans dipstick. I hate not being able to check stuff on my car.
Probably not... Same as any other but most likely with multi-level lock-up modes so that they can change the speed by choosing to lock-up across more than just the final gear. That's what my 8 speed Highlander transmission does.
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I wonder what the guts of the new Ford / GM 10-speed must look like. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Sure wish the auto makers hadn't done away with the trans dipstick. I hate not being able to check stuff on my car.
Yep !
I wonder what the guts of the new Ford / GM 10-speed must look like. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Sure wish the auto makers hadn't done away with the trans dipstick. I hate not being able to check stuff on my car.
Yep !
Originally Posted by Yah-Tah-Hey
Looks like an Aisin AT.
'93-'02 Aisin A245E.
Looks like an Aisin AT.
'93-'02 Aisin A245E.
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I wonder what the guts of the new Ford / GM 10-speed must look like. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Probably not... Same as any other but most likely with multi-level lock-up modes so that they can change the speed by choosing to lock-up across more than just the final gear. That's what my 8 speed Highlander transmission does.
Care to explain?.....Us simpletons may not grasp what your saying.
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I wonder what the guts of the new Ford / GM 10-speed must look like. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Probably not... Same as any other but most likely with multi-level lock-up modes so that they can change the speed by choosing to lock-up across more than just the final gear. That's what my 8 speed Highlander transmission does.
Care to explain?.....Us simpletons may not grasp what your saying.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/mgc.gif "[Linked Image]")
In older style automatic transmissions they had only physical gears. 1,2,3 and usually the 4th gear (or the 4th shift you notice) was a lock-up torque converter further reducing the RPM. Then they came out with 4 physical gears with a lock-up torque converter. Some OE's referred to these as 4 speed lock-up's or 5 speeds with the 5th speed being a lock-up. Then came multi-stage lock-up converters which gave us more shift points we could feel on top of 4-5 physical gears and they called this Gear 5, 6, 7, 8 and now 10.
Some use more physical gears than others and achieve more of the further shift points with those and some use more stages in the lock-up converter to achieve further shift points like in my Highlander that has some physical gears and a 4 stage lock-up converter.
The control module for my transmission looks at the input/output speeds, throttle and load on the vehicle and makes a decision whether it shifts all the gears and then executes each stage of the lock-up in series one after another or if it shifts all the gears and then locks-up multiple speeds all at once instead of in series so it feels like 2 further shift points past the physical gears instead of the 4 shift points past the physical gears.
To the driver it just feels like additional gears although lock-up transition is usually much less pronounced and the RPM's fall very smoothly versus feeling more of a positive engagement with physical gears.
Folks that drive pick-up's that have the button on the shifter that they press when towing, prevents the truck from using the lock-up torque converter mode / modes which helps keep the engine revs up for power and takes stress off the transmission and keeps it cool. (Some vehicles like my Highlander have Power / Economy buttons that will do this as well on-top of changing the shift points for more performance).
It's all about RPM reduction for fuel economy but being responsive enough that if you want more power it can quickly deliver. It's easier to unlock one or 2 stages in a torque converter that has multi-stage lock-up than it is to down shift through 2-3 gears because of the lag time and jerki-ness when you are at really low RPM's coasting down the highway and all of a sudden want power to pass.
Some use more physical gears than others and achieve more of the further shift points with those and some use more stages in the lock-up converter to achieve further shift points like in my Highlander that has some physical gears and a 4 stage lock-up converter.
The control module for my transmission looks at the input/output speeds, throttle and load on the vehicle and makes a decision whether it shifts all the gears and then executes each stage of the lock-up in series one after another or if it shifts all the gears and then locks-up multiple speeds all at once instead of in series so it feels like 2 further shift points past the physical gears instead of the 4 shift points past the physical gears.
To the driver it just feels like additional gears although lock-up transition is usually much less pronounced and the RPM's fall very smoothly versus feeling more of a positive engagement with physical gears.
Folks that drive pick-up's that have the button on the shifter that they press when towing, prevents the truck from using the lock-up torque converter mode / modes which helps keep the engine revs up for power and takes stress off the transmission and keeps it cool. (Some vehicles like my Highlander have Power / Economy buttons that will do this as well on-top of changing the shift points for more performance).
It's all about RPM reduction for fuel economy but being responsive enough that if you want more power it can quickly deliver. It's easier to unlock one or 2 stages in a torque converter that has multi-stage lock-up than it is to down shift through 2-3 gears because of the lag time and jerki-ness when you are at really low RPM's coasting down the highway and all of a sudden want power to pass.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by StevieC
In older style automatic transmissions they had only physical gears. 1,2,3 and usually the 4th gear (or the 4th shift you notice) was a lock-up torque converter further reducing the RPM. Then they came out with 4 physical gears with a lock-up torque converter. Some OE's referred to these as 4 speed lock-up's or 5 speeds with the 5th speed being a lock-up. Then came multi-stage lock-up converters which gave us more shift points we could feel on top of 4-5 physical gears and they called this Gear 5, 6, 7, 8 and now 10.
Some use more physical gears than others and achieve more of the further shift points with those and some use more stages in the lock-up converter to achieve further shift points like in my Highlander that has some physical gears and a 4 stage lock-up converter.
The control module for my transmission looks at the input/output speeds, throttle and load on the vehicle and makes a decision whether it shifts all the gears and then executes each stage of the lock-up in series one after another or if it shifts all the gears and then locks-up multiple speeds all at once instead of in series so it feels like 2 further shift points past the physical gears instead of the 4 shift points past the physical gears.
To the driver it just feels like additional gears although lock-up transition is usually much less pronounced and the RPM's fall very smoothly versus feeling more of a positive engagement with physical gears.
Folks that drive pick-up's that have the button on the shifter that they press when towing, prevents the truck from using the lock-up torque converter mode / modes which helps keep the engine revs up for power and takes stress off the transmission and keeps it cool. (Some vehicles like my Highlander have Power / Economy buttons that will do this as well on-top of changing the shift points for more performance).
It's all about RPM reduction for fuel economy but being responsive enough that if you want more power it can quickly deliver. It's easier to unlock one or 2 stages in a torque converter that has multi-stage lock-up than it is to down shift through 2-3 gears because of the lag time and jerki-ness when you are at really low RPM's coasting down the highway and all of a sudden want power to pass.
So my Allison 1000 doesn't have 6 "physical" gear ratios? And my 4L80E is a 3 speed that "Locks-up"? Thanks for starting this thread......I'm learning so much!!
In older style automatic transmissions they had only physical gears. 1,2,3 and usually the 4th gear (or the 4th shift you notice) was a lock-up torque converter further reducing the RPM. Then they came out with 4 physical gears with a lock-up torque converter. Some OE's referred to these as 4 speed lock-up's or 5 speeds with the 5th speed being a lock-up. Then came multi-stage lock-up converters which gave us more shift points we could feel on top of 4-5 physical gears and they called this Gear 5, 6, 7, 8 and now 10.
Some use more physical gears than others and achieve more of the further shift points with those and some use more stages in the lock-up converter to achieve further shift points like in my Highlander that has some physical gears and a 4 stage lock-up converter.
The control module for my transmission looks at the input/output speeds, throttle and load on the vehicle and makes a decision whether it shifts all the gears and then executes each stage of the lock-up in series one after another or if it shifts all the gears and then locks-up multiple speeds all at once instead of in series so it feels like 2 further shift points past the physical gears instead of the 4 shift points past the physical gears.
To the driver it just feels like additional gears although lock-up transition is usually much less pronounced and the RPM's fall very smoothly versus feeling more of a positive engagement with physical gears.
Folks that drive pick-up's that have the button on the shifter that they press when towing, prevents the truck from using the lock-up torque converter mode / modes which helps keep the engine revs up for power and takes stress off the transmission and keeps it cool. (Some vehicles like my Highlander have Power / Economy buttons that will do this as well on-top of changing the shift points for more performance).
It's all about RPM reduction for fuel economy but being responsive enough that if you want more power it can quickly deliver. It's easier to unlock one or 2 stages in a torque converter that has multi-stage lock-up than it is to down shift through 2-3 gears because of the lag time and jerki-ness when you are at really low RPM's coasting down the highway and all of a sudden want power to pass.
So my Allison 1000 doesn't have 6 "physical" gear ratios? And my 4L80E is a 3 speed that "Locks-up"? Thanks for starting this thread......I'm learning so much!!
I'm not sure on those specific transmissions but most of the time additional gears are just lock-up stages and not full physical gears unless severe towing or torque might be required. Then they can use multiplier gears for additional gears using the same first set of gears again but this is less common in regular cars/SUV's Usually it's multi-stage lock-up. Multiplier gears are typically used in Big-Rig transmissions.
Except in big rig trucks because the loading they do they need actual physical gears to handle the load and produce enough torque where fluid lock-up would overheat. But what multi-speeds truck transmissions will do is cycle through all the gears, say 1-5, then using the selector ring you essentially shift back through the gears again because now they have modified the input or output speed using a multiplier gear so those same five speeds are now x2 for example: 1-5 becomes 5-10 using the multiplier gear on the input or output shaft. So a 10 speed truck transmission might only have 5 actual gears with input or output shaft multiplier gear that multiplies the first 5 speeds into 10 sort of thing.
It's not exactly a factor of 2 and it doesn't have to be the same factor in the multiplier for each gear but I won't complicate this discussion further. The basic idea is as I described above.
Having worked on big diesel engines/transmissions with my dad and having seen in a Truck transmission it's a whole other world and it is quite surprising the thought and technology that goes into those transmissions. You thought car/suv transmissions were complicated open a modern Big-Rig truck transmission. Those things are crazy.
Except in big rig trucks because the loading they do they need actual physical gears to handle the load and produce enough torque where fluid lock-up would overheat. But what multi-speeds truck transmissions will do is cycle through all the gears, say 1-5, then using the selector ring you essentially shift back through the gears again because now they have modified the input or output speed using a multiplier gear so those same five speeds are now x2 for example: 1-5 becomes 5-10 using the multiplier gear on the input or output shaft. So a 10 speed truck transmission might only have 5 actual gears with input or output shaft multiplier gear that multiplies the first 5 speeds into 10 sort of thing.
It's not exactly a factor of 2 and it doesn't have to be the same factor in the multiplier for each gear but I won't complicate this discussion further. The basic idea is as I described above.
Having worked on big diesel engines/transmissions with my dad and having seen in a Truck transmission it's a whole other world and it is quite surprising the thought and technology that goes into those transmissions. You thought car/suv transmissions were complicated open a modern Big-Rig truck transmission. Those things are crazy.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
