Best NOACK for 0w20

[buster]

This is probably just marketing, but oddly enough the only Mobil 1 oils that mention cleaning within the PDS are the regular Mobil 1 line.

"keep your engine running like new by providing exceptional wear protection, cleaning power and overall performance". Never understood that but it's probably just marketing as I would assume they are all about that same in that area.

More specifically, M1 0w40:

"It provides exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 keeps your engine running like new in all driving conditions."

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
This has turned into a great discussion.

Or a fantastic game of dodgeball depending on your viewpoint.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This has turned into a great discussion.

Or a fantastic game of dodgeball depending on your viewpoint.

"The truth is somewhere in the middle"

So the saying goes.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This has turned into a great discussion.

Or a fantastic game of dodgeball depending on your viewpoint.

"The truth is somewhere in the middle".
Not in this thread

 

[PimTac]

This discussion does suggest that looking at one component or measurement of a oil is not the ideal way to determine if it’s the better one. It’s easier for us consumers to rely on the certifications and licenses the oil holds and use it with confidence.

 

[StevieC]

I use uncertified oils with confidence.

 

[two4spooky]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...(snip)

The minimum NOACK for GM dexos is 13.0%.
Maximum. The Noack requirement set maximum allowable limits. If higher Noack numbers did help reduce IVD(or other deposits) then required Noack minimums would be understandable.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
This discussion does suggest that looking at one component or measurement of a oil is not the ideal way to determine if it’s the better one. It’s easier for us consumers to rely on the certifications and licenses the oil holds and use it with confidence.


My final takeaway as well.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
This discussion does suggest that looking at one component or measurement of a oil is not the ideal way to determine if it’s the better one. It’s easier for us consumers to rely on the certifications and licenses the oil holds and use it with confidence.


This. And on top of that, price is a good indicator of base stock quality within a given brand or within the “big 4” (M1, PZ, VVL, Castrol)... more so than anything we can glean from a product data sheet.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
*Thanks Gokhan , then I assume the same would hold true for PPPP synthetics : 0W20 , 5W20 , 5W30 & 10W30 ?

I think PPPP uses similar GTL (and perhaps some arguably GTL XHVI Group III as well) base stocks for the different viscosity grades. GTL is a lot cheaper than PAO and POE, and it's not much more expensive than Group III. If they have a conveniently available slate of GTL base stocks (Pearl GTL has two or three KV100 varieties of base stocks), it may be easiest to use it for all viscosity grades.

However, some other manufactures may choose better Group III base stocks (with higher VI) or GTL in a 0W-20 and use cheaper Group III base stocks (with lower VI) in a 5W-30, as the 5W-30 CCS requirement is easier to meet for a given NOACK requirement (such as 13% maximum).

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: two4spooky
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...(snip)

The minimum NOACK for GM dexos is 13.0%.

Maximum. The Noack requirement set maximum allowable limits. If higher Noack numbers did help reduce IVD(or other deposits) then required Noack minimums would be understandable.

Yes, of course, I had meant maximum percentage evaporation. By minimum NOACK criteria, I was thinking in terms of minimum base-oil quality as the resistance to evaporation.

 

[Speak2Mountain]

Looks like running Amsoil SS 0w20 is the only to cover all your basis on NOACK and TEOST

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: Speak2Mountain
Looks like running Amsoil SS 0w20 is the only to cover all your basis on NOACK and TEOST




I wonder who supplies the base to Amsoil?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
... the lower the NOACK and/or higher the base-oil viscosity, the more the intake-valve deposits will be. Alternatively, the higher the NOACK and/or lower the base-oil viscosity, the less the intake-valve deposits will be.

This is because one mechanism of cleaning of the intake-valve deposits is evaporation. If NOACK volatility is low or the base-oil is thick, the oil will spend more time on the valves as it evaporates more slowly, therefore leaving more deposits behind.
Intake-valve and combustion-chamber depo...ts their growth

So, if you want the least intake-valve deposits in a GDI engine, you need to pick up a 0W-20 with higher NOACK. A 10W-30, which has both a thick base oil and low NOACK would be the worst choice as far as the intake-valve deposits are concerned. From the article: "The most important lubricating-oil component for deposit formation is the base oil. Increasing the high molecular weight (high viscosity) and low volatility content of the oil increases deposit formation."

I would encourage anyone interested to read the paper before latching onto that single by line as a factual representation of the paper...it is Point 8 in the conclusions regarding intake valve deposits, and COmbustion chamber deposits out of 12.


After reading the paper carefully, my conclusion is that DGI engines that exhibit excessive IVD is more a function of the engine design - particularly the PCV system - than what kind of oil they use. The difference in IVD between the worst oil and the best oil in terms of developing deposits is probably in the noise realm on an engine that's designed in such a way as to create lots of oil vapors/mist and suck it into the intake manifold without any kind of PVC oil separation control. If car engine designers would come up with a much better way to keep the oil mist out of the intake manifold it would go a whole lot farther in preventing IVD.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Speak2Mountain
Looks like running Amsoil SS 0w20 is the only to cover all your basis on NOACK and TEOST


Uh-oh... You said it now.

 

[ChrisD46]

Quote :"After reading the paper carefully, my conclusion is that DGI engines that exhibit excessive IVD is more a function of the engine design - particularly the PCV system - than what kind of oil they use. The difference in IVD between the worst oil and the best oil in terms of developing deposits is probably in the noise realm on an engine that's designed in such a way as to create lots of oil vapors/mist and suck it into the intake manifold without any kind of PVC oil separation control. If car engine designers would come up with a much better way to keep the oil mist out of the intake manifold it would go a whole lot farther in preventing IVD".

*The Sonata in my signature is a GDI engine - in the OM Hyundai states : 5W20 (stamped on the oil fill cap) also , 5W30 & 10W30 are acceptable to use (depending on ambient temps for optimal protection - another can of worms there... I saw 0W20 was not listed in a 2017 OM by Hyundai as an oil grade option)... Uhhmm ?? ... On another note - passed through my local Hyundai service center and the front counters were sporting these direct injection valves displayed with crusted on intake valve deposits and a sign that read : "Ask us about our intake valve deposit cleaning service" (no price was listed) . I told the sales manager that sign was great to increase sales - for competitor engines which provide a PFI / DI hybrid valve assembly in each cylinder to greatly reduce intake valve deposits . Suffice to say the sales manager didn't like what I said raising his voice that Hyundai makes a great GDI engine as I looked closely handling the new "let us clean your intake valves" sign with actual crud caked intake valve recently displayed (lol !) I like my Sonata - but as a electronics engineer I trouble shoot poor processes a good deal and want the best for my car beyond after the warranty ends . Doubtful that a 0W20 would do any harm to the engine but since Hyundai doesn't state 0W20 in the manual one has to determine if using a 0W20 is worth risking a warranty engine issue on (no matter how slim the chance) so 5W20 synthetic for now - but very much enjoy this 0W20 comparison with 5W20 and other oil grades thread !

 

[wemay]

^Your Sonata will be fine. I've had a 2.4L Hyundai/KIA product in my driveway for some years now and have only encountered one issue with my first Sonata...pinging. It was rectified once the battery died and i changed the plugs and battery on the same day.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Speak2Mountain
Looks like running Amsoil SS 0w20 is the only to cover all your basis on NOACK and TEOST




I wonder who supplies the base to Amsoil?


The same companies that supply base oil to any other blender. I know that Amsoil gets its PAO from Mobil. Their group III, I am not certain. Doesn't really matter anyway. All the blenders get their base oil from the same refiners. The add pack is what really makes the major differences in finished motor oils.

Either way, if one is worried about getting the lowest NOACK from a 0w20, then just use a 5w20. Problem solved.

 

[kr_bitog]

Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Valvoline just sponsored a youtube video yesterday that says LOW NOACK is best for keeping deposits out of modern GDI engines.



Other than that one sketchy Polish research paper claiming high NOACK is better, is there any other evidence backing up the theory?


HA!! Yet their Modern Synthetic has a worse Noack than the regular Valvoline FS!


I believe this Valvoline talking about their new oil addressing LSPI rather than intake valve deposit.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
After reading the paper carefully, my conclusion is that DGI engines that exhibit excessive IVD is more a function of the engine design - particularly the PCV system - than what kind of oil they use. The difference in IVD between the worst oil and the best oil in terms of developing deposits is probably in the noise realm on an engine that's designed in such a way as to create lots of oil vapors/mist and suck it into the intake manifold without any kind of PVC oil separation control. If car engine designers would come up with a much better way to keep the oil mist out of the intake manifold it would go a whole lot farther in preventing IVD.


There's a really good Honda paper on developing a crankcase ventilation system to get oil droplets of increasingly fine particle size out of the crankcase vapours.

It's no easy task.

(Back in my turbine days one of the insurmountable problems was getting oil mist out of the tanks and bearings...the oil return lines act as a boundary layer "compressor"...It's ridiculously hard to coalesce oil mists and stop them getting out.)