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Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: HKPolice] #4849307
08/24/18 12:50 AM
08/24/18 12:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Valvoline just sponsored a youtube video yesterday that says LOW NOACK is best for keeping deposits out of modern GDI engines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW0wCl-O7oY

Other than that one sketchy Polish research paper claiming high NOACK is better, is there any other evidence backing up the theory?

The video repeats the falsehood that the oil mist coming from the PCV is evaporated base oil. According to the Afton paper, it isn't -- it's liquid oil droplets containing the full additive package in them.

The video is sponsored but not made by Valvoline, as you said.

If you a repeat a falsehood often enough, it eventually becomes an illusion of truth, such as lower NOACK reducing the flow of the PCV oil mist. The media and Internet is becoming synonymous with fake news these days. Solution: Obtain your knowledge from scientific papers instead.

Low NOACK is a good thing if it indicates a good base oil (PAO/POE, GTL), but for a given base-oil type, it may not be such a good thing. It may help lower oil consumption if you have that problem but that's its main benefit. Also, the NOACK or base oil aren't the only variables, as we discussed. It's a pretty complicated business.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849311
08/24/18 01:06 AM
08/24/18 01:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
HKPolice Offline
HKPolice  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Valvoline just sponsored a youtube video yesterday that says LOW NOACK is best for keeping deposits out of modern GDI engines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW0wCl-O7oY

Other than that one sketchy Polish research paper claiming high NOACK is better, is there any other evidence backing up the theory?

The video repeats the falsehood that the oil mist coming from the PCV is evaporated base oil. According to the Afton paper, it isn't -- it's liquid oil droplets containing the full additive package in them.

The video is sponsored but not made by Valvoline, as you said.

If you a repeat a falsehood often enough, it eventually becomes an illusion of truth, such as lower NOACK reducing the flow of the PCV oil mist. The media and Internet is becoming synonymous with fake news these days. Solution: Obtain your knowledge from scientific papers instead.

Low NOACK is a good thing if it indicates a good base oil (PAO/POE, GTL), but for a given base-oil type, it may not be such a good thing. It may help lower oil consumption if you have that problem but that's its main benefit. Also, the NOACK or base oil aren't the only variables, as we discussed. It's a pretty complicated business.


No way Valvoline would let this video get posted if it contains incorrect info. You have to understand how sponsored youtube vids work. The sponsor has complete control over the content of the video, they can't afford incorrect info to tarnish their brand so they review it thoroughly before posting.

VME NOACK is 12% vs VAS @ 11%, hardly a significant difference and within margins of error. If having a higher NOACK helps with GDI IVD then Valvoline should've formulated VME with at least 60% PAO/POE & 15% NOACK, instead of 53% GrpIII.

Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: HKPolice] #4849315
08/24/18 01:16 AM
08/24/18 01:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
No way Valvoline would let this video get posted if it contains incorrect info. You have to understand how sponsored youtube vids work. The sponsor has complete control over the content of the video, they can't afford incorrect info to tarnish their brand so they review it thoroughly before posting.

VME NOACK is 12% vs VAS @ 11%, hardly a significant difference. If having a higher NOACK helps with GDI IVD then Valvoline should've formulated VME with at least 60% PAO/POE & 15% NOACK, instead of 53% GrpIII.

I repeat again: The video repeats the falsehood that the oil mist coming from the PCV is evaporated base oil. According to the Afton paper, it isn't -- it's liquid oil droplets containing the full additive package in them.

I don't care how Valvoline vetted the video. The statement made in the video regarding the PCV oil mist is simply false.

It's up to Valvoline to use whatever base stock they want for their full-synthetic oils as long as it's at least Group III.

The minimum NOACK for GM dexos is 13.0%.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849325
08/24/18 01:52 AM
08/24/18 01:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
HKPolice Offline
HKPolice  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
No way Valvoline would let this video get posted if it contains incorrect info. You have to understand how sponsored youtube vids work. The sponsor has complete control over the content of the video, they can't afford incorrect info to tarnish their brand so they review it thoroughly before posting.

VME NOACK is 12% vs VAS @ 11%, hardly a significant difference. If having a higher NOACK helps with GDI IVD then Valvoline should've formulated VME with at least 60% PAO/POE & 15% NOACK, instead of 53% GrpIII.

I repeat again: The video repeats the falsehood that the oil mist coming from the PCV is evaporated base oil. According to the Afton paper, it isn't -- it's liquid oil droplets containing the full additive package in them.

I don't care how Valvoline vetted the video. The statement made in the video regarding the PCV oil mist is simply false.

It's up to Valvoline to use whatever base stock they want for their full-synthetic oils as long as it's at least Group III.

The minimum NOACK for GM dexos is 13.0%.


Well you should contact the youtuber & valvoline & clear it up for them.

Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849331
08/24/18 02:31 AM
08/24/18 02:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,190
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,190
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
I believe for a GDI engine you would want as low a NOACK oil as possible to keep intake valve deposits at bay (along with top tier gas , shorter OCI's , etc.) with a GDI engine.

Nope, on the contrary, the lower the NOACK and/or higher the base-oil viscosity, the more the intake-valve deposits will be. Alternatively, the higher the NOACK and/or lower the base-oil viscosity, the less the intake-valve deposits will be.

This is because one mechanism of cleaning of the intake-valve deposits is evaporation. If NOACK volatility is low or the base-oil is thick, the oil will spend more time on the valves as it evaporates more slowly, therefore leaving more deposits behind.

Intake-valve and combustion-chamber depo...ts their growth

So, if you want the least intake-valve deposits in a GDI engine, you need to pick up a 0W-20 with higher NOACK. A 10W-30, which has both a thick base oil and low NOACK would be the worst choice as far as the intake-valve deposits are concerned.

From the article: "The most important lubricating-oil component for deposit formation is the base oil. Increasing the high molecular weight (high viscosity) and low volatility content of the oil increases deposit formation."


I would encourage anyone interested to read the paper before latching onto that single by line as a factual representation of the paper...it is Point 8 in the conclusions regarding intake valve deposits, and COmbustion chamber deposits out of 12.

The textual context of the IVD (Intake Valve Deposits, using acronyms conveys an understanding of hidden knowledge) is

Quote:
Taking into consideration that in the case of GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) engines no fuel is injected into the intake manifold, so no fuel spray is directed on the intake valves
tulip, lubricating oil is seen to be a significant factor in the amount of IVD formed in the GDI engine. In GDI engines, lubricating oil has direct paths to the intake valves through
the valve guides and PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) system, while fuel must be considered to interact with the intake valves in only a secondary fashion, such as through blowback upon intake valve opening. At the same time in the case of GDI engines lubricating oil flowing to the intake valves through the valve guides without washing by the fuel, in consequence quite often formed IVD in GDI engines which
is higher than in the PFI [4].

Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849335
08/24/18 02:39 AM
08/24/18 02:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,424
GA.
ChrisD46 Offline
ChrisD46  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,424
GA.
*Would say M1 10W30 be considered a synthetic that uses a good base stock and as a result have a lower NOACK ?
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Valvoline just sponsored a youtube video yesterday that says LOW NOACK is best for keeping deposits out of modern GDI engines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW0wCl-O7oY

Other than that one sketchy Polish research paper claiming high NOACK is better, is there any other evidence backing up the theory?

The video repeats the falsehood that the oil mist coming from the PCV is evaporated base oil. According to the Afton paper, it isn't -- it's liquid oil droplets containing the full additive package in them.

The video is sponsored but not made by Valvoline, as you said.

If you a repeat a falsehood often enough, it eventually becomes an illusion of truth, such as lower NOACK reducing the flow of the PCV oil mist. The media and Internet is becoming synonymous with fake news these days. Solution: Obtain your knowledge from scientific papers instead.

Low NOACK is a good thing if it indicates a good base oil (PAO/POE, GTL), but for a given base-oil type, it may not be such a good thing. It may help lower oil consumption if you have that problem but that's its main benefit. Also, the NOACK or base oil aren't the only variables, as we discussed. It's a pretty complicated business.


'17 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L GDI 5W30 Valvoline Advanced Syn / Fram Ultra
'10 Hyundai Elantra 2.0L 5W30 QSUD / Fram Ultra
'07 Kia Sedona 3.8L 5W30 M1 EP HM / Fram Ultra
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: ChrisD46] #4849346
08/24/18 04:08 AM
08/24/18 04:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,454
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
*Would say M1 10W30 be considered a synthetic that uses a good base stock and as a result have a lower NOACK ?

According to the ExxonMobil MSDS (note that the additives and VII are about 20 - 25%):

M1 EP 0W-20: 60 - 70% PAO (the base oil is probably all PAO and POE)
M1 EP 5W-20: 20 - 30% PAO (the rest of the base oil is Group III with possibly some POE)
M1 EP 5W-30: 20 - 30% PAO (the rest of the base oil is Group III with possibly some POE)
M1 EP 10W-30: 1 - 5% PAO (the base oil is mostly Group III with a small dash of PAO and perhaps a small dash of POE as well)

POE isn't hazardous and therefore is unlisted but it could be about 10% for M1 EP 0W-20.

Therefore, they tend to decrease the base-oil quality as the x in xW-y becomes higher, since the CCS requirement is easier to meet and thicker base oils naturally have lower NOACK even for lower API groups (for lower base-oil quality).


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: HKPolice] #4849413
08/24/18 07:18 AM
08/24/18 07:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,428
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,428
NJ
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Valvoline just sponsored a youtube video yesterday that says LOW NOACK is best for keeping deposits out of modern GDI engines.



Other than that one sketchy Polish research paper claiming high NOACK is better, is there any other evidence backing up the theory?


HA!! Yet their Modern Synthetic has a worse Noack than the regular Valvoline FS!


2015 Mazda 3 2.0 - Mobil 1 EP 0w20
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849421
08/24/18 07:25 AM
08/24/18 07:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,424
GA.
ChrisD46 Offline
ChrisD46  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,424
GA.
*Thanks Gokhan , then I assume the same would hold true for PPPP synthetics : 0W20 , 5W20 , 5W30 & 10W30 ?
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
*Would say M1 10W30 be considered a synthetic that uses a good base stock and as a result have a lower NOACK ?

According to the ExxonMobil MSDS (note that the additives and VII are about 20 - 25%):

M1 EP 0W-20: 60 - 70% PAO (the base oil is probably all PAO and POE)
M1 EP 5W-20: 20 - 30% PAO (the rest of the base oil is Group III with possibly some POE)
M1 EP 5W-30: 20 - 30% PAO (the rest of the base oil is Group III with possibly some POE)
M1 EP 10W-30: 1 - 5% PAO (the base oil is mostly Group III with a small dash of PAO and perhaps a small dash of POE as well)

POE isn't hazardous and therefore is unlisted but it could be about 10% for M1 EP 0W-20.

Therefore, they tend to decrease the base-oil quality as the x in xW-y becomes higher, since the CCS requirement is easier to meet and thicker base oils naturally have lower NOACK even for lower API groups (for lower base-oil quality).


'17 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L GDI 5W30 Valvoline Advanced Syn / Fram Ultra
'10 Hyundai Elantra 2.0L 5W30 QSUD / Fram Ultra
'07 Kia Sedona 3.8L 5W30 M1 EP HM / Fram Ultra
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849446
08/24/18 08:04 AM
08/24/18 08:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,017
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline OP
StevieC  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,017
ON, Canada eh?
This has turned into a great discussion. popcorn2


'18 Caravan - 40k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849464
08/24/18 08:30 AM
08/24/18 08:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,428
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,428
NJ
This is probably just marketing, but oddly enough the only Mobil 1 oils that mention cleaning within the PDS are the regular Mobil 1 line.

"keep your engine running like new by providing exceptional wear protection, cleaning power and overall performance". Never understood that but it's probably just marketing as I would assume they are all about that same in that area.

More specifically, M1 0w40:

"It provides exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 keeps your engine running like new in all driving conditions."


2015 Mazda 3 2.0 - Mobil 1 EP 0w20
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849488
08/24/18 08:58 AM
08/24/18 08:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,879
Houston, TX
2015_PSD Online content
2015_PSD  Online Content

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,879
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This has turned into a great discussion. popcorn2
Or a fantastic game of dodgeball depending on your viewpoint. smirk


2018 Mercedes Benz AMG GLC43 3.0L Bi-Turbo [Castrol Edge 0W-40 & MB (Purflux) filter]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: 2015_PSD] #4849528
08/24/18 09:33 AM
08/24/18 09:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,952
Kendall, FL
wemay Online happy
wemay  Online Happy

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,952
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This has turned into a great discussion. popcorn2
Or a fantastic game of dodgeball depending on your viewpoint. smirk


"The truth is somewhere in the middle"

So the saying goes.


2018 KIA Sportage LX 2.4 AWD:
Now: QSAD 5W-20, PH9688
Next: ST Syn 5W-30, ST9688

2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T:
Now: STP HM 5W-30, S2808XL
Next: ST Syn 5W-30, ST9688
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: wemay] #4849553
08/24/18 09:56 AM
08/24/18 09:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,879
Houston, TX
2015_PSD Online content
2015_PSD  Online Content

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,879
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This has turned into a great discussion. popcorn2
Or a fantastic game of dodgeball depending on your viewpoint. smirk
"The truth is somewhere in the middle".
Not in this thread crackmeup crackmeup crackmeup


2018 Mercedes Benz AMG GLC43 3.0L Bi-Turbo [Castrol Edge 0W-40 & MB (Purflux) filter]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849576
08/24/18 10:26 AM
08/24/18 10:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,073
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,073
...
This discussion does suggest that looking at one component or measurement of a oil is not the ideal way to determine if its the better one. Its easier for us consumers to rely on the certifications and licenses the oil holds and use it with confidence.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
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