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Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849110
08/23/18 08:33 PM
08/23/18 08:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,443
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Online content
Gokhan  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,443
Los Angeles, California
Speaking of TEOST 33C and IVD, moly is a notorious deposit catalyst. This is the reason behind the 0W-20 TEOST 33C exemption, as Japanese OEM's like to load 0W-20 with hundreds of ppm of moly.

Valvoline, Lucas, and Royal Purple, which did well in TEOST 33C in the chart above, didn't have any moly.

Therefore, for a GDI engine, avoid any oil that has any more than 100 ppm of moly. For a GDI engine, if you can find a good oil without moly, it's even better.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849113
08/23/18 08:37 PM
08/23/18 08:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
2015_PSD Offline
2015_PSD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
[...]This is the reason behind the 0W-20 TEOST 33C exemption[...]
So are 0W-20 oils tested under TEOST 33C or not?


2018 Mercedes Benz AMG GLC43 3.0L Bi-Turbo [Castrol Edge 0W-40 & MB (Purflux) filter]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849150
08/23/18 09:08 PM
08/23/18 09:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,182
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,182
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Therefore, for a GDI engine, avoid any oil that has any more than 100 ppm of moly. For a GDI engine, if you can find a good oil without moly, it's even better.


So Japanese Oils are made in heaven, by OEMs who are incompetent at making and specifying the oils that they themselves recommend for their own engines (Toyota and Honda specifically).

Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849156
08/23/18 09:17 PM
08/23/18 09:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,024
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,024
...
My understanding is that most oils use the tri-nuclear moly in amounts of less than 100ppm including Valvoline.

Interesting about the high Moly counts. As is usually the case, by solving a issue with the moly another problem shows up unforeseen.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: PimTac] #4849164
08/23/18 09:22 PM
08/23/18 09:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,182
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,182
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: PimTac
My understanding is that most oils use the tri-nuclear moly in amounts of less than 100ppm including Valvoline.

Interesting about the high Moly counts. As is usually the case, by solving a issue with the moly another problem shows up unforeseen.


You've missed the last week or so of revelation...they've found that trinuclear is no longer manna from heaven, and are reverting to mega doses of (non) trinuclear, which is much better...except it's now worse

Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Shannow] #4849172
08/23/18 09:30 PM
08/23/18 09:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,024
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,024
...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
My understanding is that most oils use the tri-nuclear moly in amounts of less than 100ppm including Valvoline.

Interesting about the high Moly counts. As is usually the case, by solving a issue with the moly another problem shows up unforeseen.


You've missed the last week or so of revelation...they've found that trinuclear is no longer manna from heaven, and are reverting to mega doses of (non) trinuclear, which is much better...except it's now worse




It’s hard to keep up. The question about Teost 33 was never answered.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849173
08/23/18 09:31 PM
08/23/18 09:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,016
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline OP
StevieC  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,016
ON, Canada eh?
If Moly was a problem with GDI then we would be seeing all sorts of problems with Asian manufacturers and OE oils and that simply isn't the case. shrug


'18 Caravan - 40k KM - AMSOIL SS 0w20, Fram Ultra, TC-W3 500:1
'06 Santa Fe - 535k KM (Retired)

There is no such thing as "lifetime" fluids! mad
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849178
08/23/18 09:36 PM
08/23/18 09:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
2015_PSD Offline
2015_PSD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: StevieC
If Moly was a problem with GDI then we would be seeing all sorts of problems with Asian manufacturers and OE oils and that simply isn't the case. shrug
This is because a vast majority of the information posted in this thread as fact is (in the words of Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers):

Boooogus!


2018 Mercedes Benz AMG GLC43 3.0L Bi-Turbo [Castrol Edge 0W-40 & MB (Purflux) filter]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849198
08/23/18 09:54 PM
08/23/18 09:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,211
Western S.C.
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,211
Western S.C.
^ But entertaining, as is the inevitable heckling!


2011 Toyota Prius now at 101K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849240
08/23/18 10:25 PM
08/23/18 10:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,443
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Online content
Gokhan  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,443
Los Angeles, California
This is really good paper on TEOST 33C and moly. It sheds good light on the phenomenon.

Analysis of engine oil containing MoDTC on the thermo-oxidation engine oil simulation test (TEOST 33C)
Linchun Wang, Liping Wang and Guiyun Li
November 2, 2012
(Link)

Abstract:

The Thermo-oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test (TEOST 33C), one request of the new ILSAC GF-5 specification for passenger car, has been developed as a simulation test to evaluate the ‘‘coking’’ of engine oil in turbocharger. Generally, molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC) is added into engine oil as an effective friction modifier to improve fuel economy. Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZnDDP) has also been used as a multifunction additive in engine oils for more than 50 years. However, the results of this study showed that the coexistence of MoDTC and ZnDDP in engine oil could cause deposits accretion of the oil in the TEOST 33C. Pressurized Differential Scanning Calorimetry (PDSC) revealed that excess MoDTC led to the oxidative degradation of engine oil and there was no obvious relationship between oxidation stability and ‘‘coking’’ of engine oil. In addition, the elemental analysis of deposits demonstrated that deposits accretion was not caused by the increase ash of MoDTC. In summary, the MoDTC coexisted with ZnDDP might be acted as a ‘‘coking’’ catalyst under high temperature.



OIT is the oxidation-induction time. Longer time means slower oxidation:




Conclusion:

An investigation has been studied to evaluate the factors of engine oil containing MoDTC and ZnDDP on the TEOST 33C. Based on the experimental results of this study, the following conclusion could be drawn.

(1) The MoDTC coexisted with ZnDDP could cause obvious deposits accretion of
engine oil during TEOST 33C.

(2) Test oils prepared by different additive packages and equal MoDTC generated
different masses of deposits in TEOST 33C, but the trend of deposits accretion
with the increase in addition of MoDTC was similar.

(3) Oil with a low content of ZnDDP and a high content of MoDTC could generate
few deposits.

(4) There was a maximized proportion of MoDTC to ZnDDP to improve oxidation
stability of engine oil.

(5) There was no obvious relationship between oxidation stability and ‘‘coking’’
of engine oil.

(6) 40–50 % of the deposits were consisted of C, H, N, and O.

(7) The mass of molybdenum in new oil was not a significant source of deposits
accretion in TEOST 33C.

Acknowledgements: The authors would gratefully acknowledge the previous work of Satoru Yoshida and Yasushi Naitoh in research of TEOST 33C. Assistance from Aixiang Wang and Jinbao Xu is also acknowledged.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: Gokhan] #4849253
08/23/18 10:39 PM
08/23/18 10:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
2015_PSD Offline
2015_PSD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
This is really good paper on TEOST 33C and moly. It sheds great insight on the phenomenon.[...]
Except the 0W-20 oils that you are stating are the "best" for GDI engines and deposits in general are not tested with TEOST 33C--they are exempt. Do you know of 0W-20 oils which were tested under TEOST 33C, in this study or otherwise? Obviously, you cannot take the results from an xW-30 family of oils and extrapolate the results onto xW-20 oils, right?


2018 Mercedes Benz AMG GLC43 3.0L Bi-Turbo [Castrol Edge 0W-40 & MB (Purflux) filter]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849274
08/23/18 11:44 PM
08/23/18 11:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,045
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,045
Oregon
If moly is so bad, why are all the new GDI formula oils (d1g2, SN+) putting moly back in?


2019 Tesla Model 3 SR+
2016 Countryman S: Castrol 0W-40
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4849289
08/24/18 12:10 AM
08/24/18 12:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,443
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Online content
Gokhan  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,443
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
If moly is so bad, why are all the new GDI formula oils (d1g2, SN+) putting moly back in?

There is no such thing as "if moly is so bad." Don't forget that the detergents are the main source of the intake-valve deposits (IVD) in GDI engines but yet they are indispensable in any modern engine. Motor-oil ingredients are always a compromise. Moly increases deposits but decreases scuffing, wear (including in the timing chain), friction (up to a certain dose), oxidation (up to a certain dose), and LSPI, among other benefits. If there were no compromises, there would be a single oil with a single viscosity grade, single additive package, and a single base oil specified for all engines, instead of an entire landscape of oils.

When people ask what's good -- thin/thick, moly/no moly, low NOACK/high NOACK, VII/no VII, etc., they shouldn't expect a definite answer unless they specify their application and priorities (wear, deposits, OCI length, etc.).


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849293
08/24/18 12:16 AM
08/24/18 12:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
HKPolice Offline
HKPolice  Offline

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
Valvoline just sponsored a youtube video yesterday that says LOW NOACK is best for keeping deposits out of modern GDI engines.



Other than that one sketchy Polish research paper claiming high NOACK is better, is there any other evidence backing up the theory?

Re: Best NOACK for 0w20 [Re: StevieC] #4849295
08/24/18 12:17 AM
08/24/18 12:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,045
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline

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Posts: 2,045
Oregon
Understood, but given that IVD is one of the key issues these new oils attempt to solve, you’d think they wouldn’t want to pour fuel on the fire, unless they’ve figured out how to add moly back in to help with LSPI without causing deposit accretion.


2019 Tesla Model 3 SR+
2016 Countryman S: Castrol 0W-40
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