Best NOACK for 0w20

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Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: wemay
Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.


That is strange to me, especially for the price they are charging for it.





Total speculation but would the price be indicative of the use of more expensive base oil stocks ?



Good question and what i'm thinking too. I'm not sure if someone can tell by reading the cast# on the msds.
 
It is interesting. If you judge by Noack alone, VAS handily wins over VME. Per the PDS, VME has higher viscosity numbers but higher Noack.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: wemay
Also may be why Valvoline Modern Engine (geared exclusively toward GDi/TGDi) has a more volatile Noack number (higher) than their second tier Synthetic, Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic.

That is strange to me, especially for the price they are charging for it.

Total speculation but would the price be indicative of the use of more expensive base oil stocks ?

Good question and what i'm thinking too. I'm not sure if someone can tell by reading the cast# on the msds.

VAS 0W-20: 64742-54-7 (Group III) 57.2269%, Group I etc. 5.565%
VME 0W-20: 64742-54-7 (Group III) 53.4506%, Group I etc. 8.0697%

(Gotta love the six-significant-figure precision.)

Group I etc. is used as a solvent.

That leaves about 10 - 15% unlisted base stocks. It could be POE (ester) or AN (alkylated naphthalene). PAO is usually listed but you never know.

They don't list the CCS and PDS so that we could calculate the BOQI but my guess would be that they would be similar because they have similar base oils.

My conclusion: Similar base stocks, except VME is thinner, therefore has lower NOACK. So, no, price has nothing to do with the base oil and probably has nothing to do with the additive package either but probably has to do with marketing, just like for Mobil 1 Annual Protection. If they were running commercials for this low-volume oil, the cost would have to go into each bottle sold. That's your magic ingredient: commercials.
 
I don't agree it's just marketing. I think you "generally" get what you pay for. You can't determine all the %'s and base oil composition. Mobil 1 AP was engineered to go a bit further than the other grades of Mobil 1, likely more AO's and things you can't see via a VOA or MSDS.
 
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I must say, this has been a very enjoyable thread to participate in and read. Thanks guys.

Thanks Gokhan for looking that info up. But i too find it hard to believe the mfcrs would scam us so wickedly. Jeeeez, i hope not.
 
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
"Pick a dexos1 Gen 2 0W-20 with low ash (low detergent) content (most intake-valve deposits are ash, especially coming from the detergent) and PAO or GTL base oil. I would say Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 is a good choice. PPPP 0W-20, TGMO 0W-20, and Super Tech High Mileage 0W-20 are also good choices, not necessarily in the order written.
* Definitely avoid high-ash (high-SAPS) oils such as ACEA A3/B4, which are detrimental to the intake valves of GDI engines. If you can find ACEA C1 or C4 low-SAPS oils, they would be a good choice, too.
* Go with the thinnest base oil possible (0W-xx), as thicker base oils may have too low NOACK, which increases deposit formation due to decreased volatility (decreased evaporative cleaning), and also have less cleaning ability due to higher aniline points".

*Based on above , would 0W20 Castrol and Valvoline (for example) make poorer choices due to their formulation versus the choices for 0W20 listed above ?

The research papers have told us that the intake-valve deposits (IVD) are caused by liquid oil -- mainly the oil-mist droplets coming through the PCV -- and not the evaporated base-oil vapors. Therefore, I think it's fair to assume that the TEOST 33C deposit test correlates well with the IVD.

Here is the data for 5W-30 oils (not 0W-20):

KXf-_FsClCGSB54KFphJRGQiWYp-RPGF04feqoL4dHqu02evLqoAnjSvHto9ycpOGrgeOornEnb8TLKZtGFqBf3ZLIOTjMLZOdzh2UnWeybaZ0_WPh_nWeDNKKnnCiUFhtRltjfATGqnW2w2ireUzV04ErsBYvVmbVpDX3ZUfXgQ_MTg4chBUeJHfRAEpS5YwzX7e7cbQjJ1x6QHiuKWbAcM5E6oI-6JWxjL3DUYnvOqOf8LoaciiX_QjsMe5S8b6SAIh3L7IwoCls3PdSKOCa51BFjo9Dt1qXmuoaTGy-FnMLeHn-DGjBNkP7GDAgg09xe-wE603AgweTtaLzemAqud-6grrJk-AtMSdAqmFRHk12L0AJ4_FwZFIF2YgPzMUuZvz_I0c3Iz1OdAaubpehF-tKL4eT2jeA_ZCcxSC4NMSYuGXhB110cOjE1soqMAUsIqCyZc9J9sKF-ScSn9X5ZwfAJZqQ8e-QnpgEp0RY11Kdmk3HkZoNLrUE1f-gesfYw-8owi_VJmzBCUPXSBtAt6JXtaH3RWhzc6YS7k2Y8OJoiNNClDAAa86vthD_mIBrfl8WcXBLsLoD-d6ZcHgCvcYU0uIa6wIy4FGZBo=w674-h1062-no

pg5pT7hmsr_uJ_qLRkoNEZZQ2fHdKs8O_9cMi9F8F5JaPqYm2M86fif4sZ5p9xlrRwb1rdQ-b6Lk54JeBnK6tKGIN6U1-qFha1TpGgjmY_2ZwMzEnzPs9SwNUYPxaRlPxHQ0QtjCbxE6fllOdIxyNKRGVSb54Gpu1DzsY_yxHn8wk8RZm6RGDd1swVrlr_Z7icuqblLn1EV6ycOH1JHfxHMlHwOUW7VOZ8OdJWcYWgSmPPvGtlXXg8JJrs5HkaW1r_MtoaiBjfVg3XZMfNgxx3yNyrIWiqjyNt7VogyoeixQXskWoPSSKrpYtILz-lcX4hDFs_XgdyIaMh9uihjAGjjlZvW8PvNvm5Ztb6hGspOfLhDYESCnPq5p_kRXNSoe6ChzBOfjWCtMz-vmIH__6xoBB96tCUMR5juSYzJUOWbwEBdRj8fjPonNKKOSkzhxW3PSIwkZPY3WZXci8wkP9kXrJ3jvQv_9Ed-Ec9cTgRpx1mryKYmS7o52YUVOVTSvWqmu1KtNylJoMrmCw6va-baINGb1cdIDG2JgmAfe_rkMx1dHQkXe955Qv0aos7FpixHoJS6Bri2jRt-2UAlGeTeuz8H3UQsETtUTE5gQ=w665-h1056-no


Code:
Oil TEOST 33C rank NOACK rank



Castrol Edge with FST 1 8

Amsoil SS 2 3

Valvoline SynPower 3 9

Lucas Synthetic 4 10

Pennzoil Ultra 5 2

Royal Purple HP 6 5

QSUD 7 6

Petro Canada Supreme 8 7

Mobil 1 EP 9 4

Red LIne HP 10 1

http://amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf

Again, the data is for 5W-30 oils (not 0W-20).

These are the PQIA test results:

http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/castroledgesyn.htm
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/valvolinesyn.htm
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/lucassynth.htm
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/penzultra.htm
http://www.pqiadata.org/Petro-Canada_5W20.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/mobil1.htm
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/quakerstatesyn.htm
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/roylprp.htm


My conclusions:

(1) A lower-ash dexos1 Gen 2 formulation with a hybrid Ca/Mg that reduces the total Ca + Mg content helps.

(2) Exceptional base oils like the Amsoil's and old Pennzoil Ultra's (without PurePlus) mostly PAO/POE (PAO/ester) base stocks help.

(3) Higher NOACK and thinner base oils help. Three of the top four in the TEOST 33C list had the highest three NOACK's. This is because oils with higher NOACK evaporate faster and spend less time wetting the intake valves, getting less chance to leave deposits behind before they evaporate.

Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 didn't do well at all but it could be a different result for Mobil 1 EP 0W-20, which has more PAO and may also have more POE.

If we assume that current 0W-20's have similar formulations to these 2013 5W-30's, you can then choose from Castrol, Amsoil, or Valvoline, which did excellent in TEOST 33C. Note that Pennzoil Ultra had an entirely different formulation than the Pennzoil Ultra Platinum with PurePlus.

I hope this helps!
 
Originally Posted By: PimTac
How is VME thinner? Did I miss something?

Oh, the base oil, not the finished oil. It would have to have more viscosity-index improver (VII) in the VME to make up for it. You definitely see it in the viscosity index (VI) for 5W-20.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: PimTac
How is VME thinner? Did I miss something?

Oh, the base oil, not the finished oil. It would have to have more viscosity-index improver (VII) in the VME to make up for it. You definitely see it in the viscosity index (VI) for 5W-20.



I see. Thanks for clarifying.

This is totally unscientific but when I changed my oil last I used 5 qts of VAS 0w20 which was a light amber color. The fill was not up to the fill line on the dipstick so I went back for another quart. There was no VAS in quarts available so I bought VME 0w20 and used that. The VME was a blonde color and very different from the VAS.

I do have a 5 qt jug of VME ready for the upcoming change since Valvoline has a rebate program ongoing. I may be the first here to use this oil but I have noticed at the WM that the VME seems to be selling and it’s at a good location on the shelving compared to M1 AP which is up high and looks like it hasn’t sold at all.
 
Not all Group 3 is created equal. Same CAS number does not mean identical material. Just like not all additives are created equal (although they will look the same in an elemental ppm analysis).

And that Castrol TEOST performance is interesting. Not what I expected! Wonder how much the formula has changed since that test.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
I read a post by an engine tuner (mainly MINI and BMW engines) that said OCCs are useless for intake valve deposits. He says he has seen no difference with or without. Problem is that they simply cannot remove oil mist and vapor effectively from crankcase gasses. The best option would be to vent the PCV system atmospherically, although not exactly legal.


Just running an open crankcase breather isn't doing the guts of the engine any favors because it's not effectively being evacuated with an open breather system, which can leave nasty products of combustion where you don't want it. Even if a catch-can only removes 1 oz every 1000 miles (which is what I typically see) it's still worth having IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
I read a post by an engine tuner (mainly MINI and BMW engines) that said OCCs are useless for intake valve deposits. He says he has seen no difference with or without. Problem is that they simply cannot remove oil mist and vapor effectively from crankcase gasses. The best option would be to vent the PCV system atmospherically, although not exactly legal.


Just running an open crankcase breather isn't doing the guts of the engine any favors because it's not effectively being evacuated with an open breather system, which can leave nasty products of combustion where you don't want it. Even if a catch-can only removes 1 oz every 1000 miles (which is what I typically see) it's still worth having IMO.


Not all PCV systems route to a vacuum source. For example, our Mini routes it to the intake air tube going to the turbocharger inlet, which sees little to no vacuum. This is because there’s no vacuum source available... air flow to the engine isn’t controlled by a throttle body, but rather by altering intake valve lift via Valvetronic.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
I read a post by an engine tuner (mainly MINI and BMW engines) that said OCCs are useless for intake valve deposits. He says he has seen no difference with or without. Problem is that they simply cannot remove oil mist and vapor effectively from crankcase gasses. The best option would be to vent the PCV system atmospherically, although not exactly legal.

Just running an open crankcase breather isn't doing the guts of the engine any favors because it's not effectively being evacuated with an open breather system, which can leave nasty products of combustion where you don't want it. Even if a catch-can only removes 1 oz every 1000 miles (which is what I typically see) it's still worth having IMO.

Not all PCV systems route to a vacuum source. For example, our Mini routes it to the intake air tube going to the turbocharger inlet, which sees little to no vacuum. This is because there’s no vacuum source available... air flow to the engine isn’t controlled by a throttle body, but rather by altering intake valve lift via Valvetronic.


That's still an injection point that's a vacuum (ie below ATM pressure) when the turbo is spinning fast enough - still enough to cause positive flow through the crankcase. I'd suspect the turbo inlet could get coated with oil in a setup like that unless they are using a very efficient oil separator before the turbo intake duct.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
That's still an injection point that's a vacuum (ie below ATM pressure) when the turbo is spinning fast enough - still enough to cause positive flow through the crankcase. I'd suspect the turbo inlet could get coated with oil in a setup like that unless they are using a very efficient oil separator before the turbo intake duct.


No separator unfortunately. Over time, I’ve heard of intercoolers filling up with oil and water due to the design, as it blows the mist through the entire intake system.
 
Speaking of TEOST 33C and IVD, moly is a notorious deposit catalyst. This is the reason behind the 0W-20 TEOST 33C exemption, as Japanese OEM's like to load 0W-20 with hundreds of ppm of moly.

Valvoline, Lucas, and Royal Purple, which did well in TEOST 33C in the chart above, didn't have any moly.

Therefore, for a GDI engine, avoid any oil that has any more than 100 ppm of moly. For a GDI engine, if you can find a good oil without moly, it's even better.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
[...]This is the reason behind the 0W-20 TEOST 33C exemption[...]
So are 0W-20 oils tested under TEOST 33C or not?
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Therefore, for a GDI engine, avoid any oil that has any more than 100 ppm of moly. For a GDI engine, if you can find a good oil without moly, it's even better.


So Japanese Oils are made in heaven, by OEMs who are incompetent at making and specifying the oils that they themselves recommend for their own engines (Toyota and Honda specifically).
 
My understanding is that most oils use the tri-nuclear moly in amounts of less than 100ppm including Valvoline.

Interesting about the high Moly counts. As is usually the case, by solving a issue with the moly another problem shows up unforeseen.
 
Originally Posted By: PimTac
My understanding is that most oils use the tri-nuclear moly in amounts of less than 100ppm including Valvoline.

Interesting about the high Moly counts. As is usually the case, by solving a issue with the moly another problem shows up unforeseen.


You've missed the last week or so of revelation...they've found that trinuclear is no longer manna from heaven, and are reverting to mega doses of (non) trinuclear, which is much better...except it's now worse
 
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