Redline 5W-30 VOA

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I ran Red Line® in my 08 Civic Si for two intervals. While I usually ran Mobil 1, I could swear I "felt" a difference with the Red Line®. The engine seemed to rev more freely. And it certainly did rev, up to 8200 RPM. Of course this is nonsense and just a feeling, but I've never gotten that "ooh this is different" feeling since in any other car or oil.

The only reason I didn't keep running it was I was too cheap back then. I still run Red Line® for diff/trans fluid in my other cars.
 
Since Honda says to use 0w20 in that engine, I'd just go with Redline 0w20 or 5w20, as both have HTHS's typically found in 30-weight oils (3.0), so consider the 0w20/5w20 Redline oils as "30-weight" stuff. This 5w30 has more HTHS=3.7 than M1 0w40, and its going in an application that only needs HTHS=2.6, a bit too much overshoot.

Fuel dilution is an issue there, as its famous for that, yet I doubt its necessary to go up in HTHS that much.

Is Honda not concerned about LSPI??? If thats the case, Redline, with its high calcium, should be fine. A little POE and moly helps fight LSPI too.
So far, GM, Ford, Subaru, Hyundai/Kia, Mazda (I think) have expressed concern. Gm & Ford offically, and Subaru had some LSPI recalls. The others I'm not sure about.
It does seem like you never hear a peep about German engines and some Japanese makes, along with FCA engines having LSPI issues.
 
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Originally Posted By: BigD1
Originally Posted By: parshisa
How exactly it will kill the cats? Not a sarcasm but question as I'm curios to know


Supposedly high levels of ZDDP(phosphorus and zinc) oil vapor can plate the cats just like it plates wear surfaces inside of an engine.


Funny, most Euro oils have always had high zinc levels and have had cat for over 30 years with no more trouble than other makes.
Failures were rare and of a mechanical nature like Nissan had with the 2.4 and at least VW's went out the back and filled the muffler and didn't get sucked back into the engine and wipe out the cylinders.

IMHO some wack job got a wild hair across their arse and decided to publish a paper based on their own opinion/beliefs then add it it kills the cats. We will never know the whole story but facts are hard to ignore, 1200 ppm was not resulting in tens of millions of cars over 30+ years turning up with failed cats.
 
I'm running this in really hot weather at the moment. I actually don't have any worries about it. With it being a manual I usually keep the revs above 2k at least with little load.

I haven't noticed any type of detonation either while driving or reviewing the onboard logs, either under light load or heavy load regardless of where that load starts at on the tach
 
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Honda "Recommends" an 0W-20. That's a lot different, legally, than "Requires"
wink.gif
 
Enjoy that new Civic and you're using one of the best motor oils on earth inside it.

My daughter leased a four-door Civic for two years. I took it on a 600 mile round-trip vacation run. Both the wife and I were pleased on how well it was built and performed. We are Chevy buyers traditionally, but I may switch next time to Honda.

Liked downtown Cinci last time there. My daughter is a Kroger manager, and downtown Cinci has a huge Kroger headquarters there.
 
Originally Posted By: CincyGTS
Honda "Recommends" an 0W-20. That's a lot different, legally, than "Requires"
wink.gif

Honda could get strict on warranty requirements. Its not "legal" in the sense of any laws, just warranty denial and specs interpretation by Honda. ...Maybe with all the fuel dilution issues they've been having with this engine, they wouldn't deny warranty coverage for a thicker oil.
But then, there is the issue of Redline not being API-certified.



http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/QS/AH/ATBG1818OG/enu/ATBG1818OG.PDF

I've heard car makers can get very strict on warranty coverage, but they might not care in your case. If they ever do, mention the fuel dilution issue to them in your defense.
 
I am fairly certain I could run just about anything (reasonable) in the engine and it would last until the end of the factory warranty.
 
I have 2 relatives that work at car dealerships, one works at the largest Audi dealer in Minnesota and the other works at the largest Lexus dealer. Both have worked there for 10 plus years. None have seen any oil sample being taken. The protocol is, is there oil in the engine, is it Red(ATF) is it thick enough, is it too thick, does it smell like Hypoid gear oil? if it passes all those, it gets warrantied. All the worry on bumping up from a 5-20 to 5-30 or 5-40 is car and oil forum worry wort Dogma. Honda worries about viscosity and warranty when clearly they can't make a turbo engine that can HOLD their own criteria for viscosity. At least Hyundai puts in 5-30 in their turbos and says if 5-30 is not available you can use 5-40. That is why 0-40 goes in my motor from now on. With fuel dilution and my foot in boost a lot I want a nice oil boundary layer with a viscosity comfort zone.

Do you actually think Honda would pull a viscosity warranty denial on what usually are families and individuals that are life long Honda buyers? By the very very very very small chance of the few Honda engine failures. It's bad business to "scum" deny a engine failure that is 99.5% chance it a manufacturing flaw anyway. Oil viscosity of common oils just don't wreck engines PERIOD.
 
Originally Posted By: Needleman
What's with the silicon? 50ppm? I would ask them to check again.


I hear silicon is used as an anti-foaming agent in some race oils and HDEOs.

OP, it's good you got a VOA so you don't start panicking about air filtration when your UOA comes in.
 
When it comes to ZDDP & Zinc, Calcium & LSPI, it's been shown in some studies previous linked to on BITOG that ZDDP is a powerful LSPI quencher. Given this RL oil has 1251 ppm zinc, I would not be worried about LSPI events using this oil. I also think premium fuel helps with LSPI too.

As for the Phos (& Zinc) in the ZDDP being well above the typical ILSAC levels of about 700 ppm to 800 ppm and causing exhaust cat damage. It's typical in Europe and Australia to run high ZDDP oils well above the ILSAC limit and not have any cat problems. Right now I'm using Penrite oil with a heavy add pack (TBN = 11.0 and Zinc = 1220 ppm) without concern. Many here use high ZDDP oils like that. Also the M1 0W40 that many run in Euro cars like BMW, MB, Porsche etc has Zinc = 1100 ppm. ZDDP has many advantages, it quenches LSPI events to protect the engine, it acts as an anti-oxidant to protect the oil for long life (OCI), and it acts as an anti-wear agent to protect the metal from wear.

OP, looks like a great oil, heaps of Moly (580 ppm), Boron (101 ppm), ample TBN (8.57) and a thick 30 grade (KV 100 = 12.1 cSt) in what I believe to be a PAO & Ester based synthetic. Very Nice !!
 
Originally Posted By: Mainia
I have 2 relatives that work at car dealerships, one works at the largest Audi dealer in Minnesota and the other works at the largest Lexus dealer. Both have worked there for 10 plus years. None have seen any oil sample being taken. The protocol is, is there oil in the engine, is it Red(ATF) is it thick enough, is it too thick, does it smell like Hypoid gear oil? if it passes all those, it gets warrantied. All the worry on bumping up from a 5-20 to 5-30 or 5-40 is car and oil forum worry wort Dogma. Honda worries about viscosity and warranty when clearly they can't make a turbo engine that can HOLD their own criteria for viscosity. At least Hyundai puts in 5-30 in their turbos and says if 5-30 is not available you can use 5-40. That is why 0-40 goes in my motor from now on. With fuel dilution and my foot in boost a lot I want a nice oil boundary layer with a viscosity comfort zone.

Do you actually think Honda would pull a viscosity warranty denial on what usually are families and individuals that are life long Honda buyers? By the very very very very small chance of the few Honda engine failures. It's bad business to "scum" deny a engine failure that is 99.5% chance it a manufacturing flaw anyway. Oil viscosity of common oils just don't wreck engines PERIOD.



Really?, "none have seen an oil sample taken"? It does happen. I think you're right in that dealerships may try to hide or obfuscate the truth to the manufacturer warranty departments at times, but the attitudes of the car maker's warranty departments is many times strict about oil, where there is a spun bearing or other oil system related failure going on. I've never personally had an engine warranty claim. Other warranty claims I've had and discussions over the past 30 years with car makers, of owning new and older cars have shown strict policies by car makers (BMW, Chrysler, GM, Ford can all be "warranty claim deniers" with very little to go on and quite unfairly). It's naive to think engine makers will just roll over and take the loss.

Many accounts on BITOG over the years of warranty denials, here are just a few real-world examples:


Originally Posted By: 69Torino
Kia and Hyundai 2.4 And 2.0 GDI engine’s drop like flies. Connecting rod bearing failures. They specify 5w-20 on the oil cap. When Kia sends you a replacement 2.4 or 2.0 long block, you better use the Mobil 5w-30 Kia supplied to fill the sump or the warranty claim won’t be paid. Coincidence? NOPE


Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I actually worked at a dealer where the manufacturer reps requested that a sample of the oil used in the vehicle under consideration for warranty repairs be taken. Amazingly the tests concluded that the incorrect spec oil was used and the claim was denied...I was very surprised and shocked as were the other dealer employees. Of course you can bet that the customer was enraged. The service manager asked the owner to provide receipts that would indicate the proper oil was used, but he could not produce one single receipt. I had a feeling that if the customer would have coughed up a couple of receipts the manufacturer would have approved warranty repairs. Warranty request was denied.


Originally Posted By: dagmando
At BMW we asked for receipts of oil changes to verify if a regular scheduled maintenance was complete. On the receipt it shows the oil weight or a part # that we will call the shop an ask what type of oil it is. .....This shows a clear record of the date that match up with current mileage. BMW would require us to put some effort into this verfication process before we do a $5000 rebuild or $12,000 replacement in the V12's under warranty.


Originally Posted By: rikstaker
An email from Hyundai:
Thank you for taking the time to contact Hyundai Auto Canada. We apologize for the delay in response.
You inquired if there would be any repercussions to your warranty coverage if you were to use 0w-20 and 0w-30 oil [in a 5w20/5w30 spec'ed engine] and our understanding is any damages to your vehicle caused by the use of other products and/or grades recommended by the manufacturer would lead to our warranty department not being able to provide any assistance with the repairs of the said part. We invite you to contact our customer relations department at 1-888-216-2626 if you have any other queries.----Cordially,Christopher, Hyundai Auto Canada, Customer Relations Coordinator, 75 Frontenac dr, Markham, ON, Canada, L3T 7P9


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
As someone who has worked dealer service and also as someone who has been a warranty customer with a blown engine I can assure you that using the correct grade and rated oil matters. It is checked when engine damage occurs under warranty. What amazes me are those who think it is hand wringing to be smart and just follow the mfg's info in the owner's manual until warranty is out.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Mainia
I have 2 relatives that work at car dealerships, one works at the largest Audi dealer in Minnesota and the other works at the largest Lexus dealer. Both have worked there for 10 plus years. None have seen any oil sample being taken. The protocol is, is there oil in the engine, is it Red(ATF) is it thick enough, is it too thick, does it smell like Hypoid gear oil? if it passes all those, it gets warrantied. All the worry on bumping up from a 5-20 to 5-30 or 5-40 is car and oil forum worry wort Dogma. Honda worries about viscosity and warranty when clearly they can't make a turbo engine that can HOLD their own criteria for viscosity. At least Hyundai puts in 5-30 in their turbos and says if 5-30 is not available you can use 5-40. That is why 0-40 goes in my motor from now on. With fuel dilution and my foot in boost a lot I want a nice oil boundary layer with a viscosity comfort zone.

Do you actually think Honda would pull a viscosity warranty denial on what usually are families and individuals that are life long Honda buyers? By the very very very very small chance of the few Honda engine failures. It's bad business to "scum" deny a engine failure that is 99.5% chance it a manufacturing flaw anyway. Oil viscosity of common oils just don't wreck engines PERIOD.



Really?, "none have seen an oil sample taken"? It does happen. I think you're right in that dealerships may try to hide or obfuscate the truth to the manufacturer warranty departments at times, but the attitudes of the car maker's warranty departments is many times strict about oil, where there is a spun bearing or other oil system related failure going on. I've never personally had an engine warranty claim. Other warranty claims I've had and discussions over the past 30 years with car makers, of owning new and older cars have shown strict policies by car makers (BMW, Chrysler, GM, Ford can all be "warranty claim deniers" with very little to go on and quite unfairly). It's naive to think engine makers will just roll over and take the loss.

Many accounts on BITOG over the years of warranty denials, here are just a few real-world examples:


Originally Posted By: 69Torino
Kia and Hyundai 2.4 And 2.0 GDI engine’s drop like flies. Connecting rod bearing failures. They specify 5w-20 on the oil cap. When Kia sends you a replacement 2.4 or 2.0 long block, you better use the Mobil 5w-30 Kia supplied to fill the sump or the warranty claim won’t be paid. Coincidence? NOPE


Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I actually worked at a dealer where the manufacturer reps requested that a sample of the oil used in the vehicle under consideration for warranty repairs be taken. Amazingly the tests concluded that the incorrect spec oil was used and the claim was denied...I was very surprised and shocked as were the other dealer employees. Of course you can bet that the customer was enraged. The service manager asked the owner to provide receipts that would indicate the proper oil was used, but he could not produce one single receipt. I had a feeling that if the customer would have coughed up a couple of receipts the manufacturer would have approved warranty repairs. Warranty request was denied.


Originally Posted By: dagmando
At BMW we asked for receipts of oil changes to verify if a regular scheduled maintenance was complete. On the receipt it shows the oil weight or a part # that we will call the shop an ask what type of oil it is. .....This shows a clear record of the date that match up with current mileage. BMW would require us to put some effort into this verfication process before we do a $5000 rebuild or $12,000 replacement in the V12's under warranty.


Originally Posted By: rikstaker
An email from Hyundai:
Thank you for taking the time to contact Hyundai Auto Canada. We apologize for the delay in response.
You inquired if there would be any repercussions to your warranty coverage if you were to use 0w-20 and 0w-30 oil [in a 5w20/5w30 spec'ed engine] and our understanding is any damages to your vehicle caused by the use of other products and/or grades recommended by the manufacturer would lead to our warranty department not being able to provide any assistance with the repairs of the said part. We invite you to contact our customer relations department at 1-888-216-2626 if you have any other queries.----Cordially,Christopher, Hyundai Auto Canada, Customer Relations Coordinator, 75 Frontenac dr, Markham, ON, Canada, L3T 7P9


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
As someone who has worked dealer service and also as someone who has been a warranty customer with a blown engine I can assure you that using the correct grade and rated oil matters. It is checked when engine damage occurs under warranty. What amazes me are those who think it is hand wringing to be smart and just follow the mfg's info in the owner's manual until warranty is out.



Well.....This brought me back to a couple of issues I have seen, commented on, and been involved in. For years when I have been in dealerships getting parts for my now closed hobby Audi repair shop, and now for my family's cars, I would over hear order writers and "so called" service managers, trying to screw customers with having to use there oil or their parts or the customer's warranty would be void. I would chime in on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and in about 30% of the cases that person at the dealership would acknowledge the act or I heard something about it. Most were clueless. Some "service managers" never heard about it, they kept spewing the manufacture "Dogma" on warranty and having to use their parts to keep warranty. I would ALWAYS come to the aid of the customer by just budding right in on the conversation telling the customers they have rights under that law and this person clearly is misinformed.

About 1 year ago I had Hyundai tell me that my wife's and then mine 2013 Hyundai Elantra GT 1.8 liter was just fine when I brought it in for "The Hyundai Tick of Death". I was trying to sell this car but on came the tick last winter. In cold weather you would get this massive tick till it warmed up, then it would go away. I took out my sound finding stethoscope and the sound was clearly coming from the lifters. They told me this is a "normal sound" I called BS when I picked it up, 1 month later it got worse, and stayed ticking after warm up. In it went, Then they asked what oil filter I had , if it was OEM, I said no it is a Fram Ultra and I am using mobil 1 for all but it's first 5,000 miles where then I was using Walmart full synthetic. They said this tick has been found because you don't have the OEM oil filter on, I said no I don't want your swiss cheese badly filtering oil filter on that only covers up Hyundais engine building incompetence (I did my research before this trip). They said they would install one to see and it did not help and I told them I will be reinstalling a Fram Ultra after I get home since it my right too my law. I don't have to run you crap filter. I also researched the Fram Ultra and Fram specifically brought back the Hyundai speced filters and resigned them to match or exceed flow of the OEM, and also increase can thickness because Hyundai uses higher oil pressure then other cars to cover up their bad engineering "choices".

So I have Fram's R&D dept saying the Fram Ultra meets and in the case of the Ultra exceed the flow of the OEM since the Ultra is 100% synthetic. There was one other meeting with the service manager but it's too long to go into, The 4th time i dropped it off and said here are the keys and I don't want it back till you fix it. 4 hours later i get a call that said my 1.8 liter that was not in ANY recall BECAUSE it is a silent warranty recall so the NTSB won't get another federal motor recall. I said I don't want a short block because I know those lifters are toast and there has to be the first sign of metal flowing passed the filter and taking out the lifters. I had no rod knock, in fact the motor was butter smooth and you could not feel it running you would sometimes hit the starter with no radio or fan on, and for a 1.8 liter it flew. After 5,000 miles on the new motor that I waited to bring in at the 5,000 mark for being a DOG no power curve/band and about 15 to 20 hp shy of the old motor. I hated driving the car, I bought a 2018 Hyundai Kona AWD 1.6 turbo. My research before I bought, showed the 1.6t is Hyundai best motor just out of pure LUCK, and the Kona fit every area I wanted that no others in my price range could fit. The next one up was a BMW X2 that I can't afford.


I digress.

As for the postings you posted, I have talked to both Redline and Amsoil on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (MMWA). They do not see any manufacture challenging them on USA cars, only rogue dealers who want to play hard ball. In almost every case it turned out to be a manufacturing flaw. As you know our car oils are really really good now a days, it is almost NEVER a oil problem. It's manufactures like Hyundai that can't manufacture a motor correctly. The MMWA clearly helps out only USA car buyers and Canada Hyundai and other Canada manufactures make you jump through hoops where USA customers have to do nothing. On the Hyundai forums, Hyundai Canada wanted to charge the car owner of the bad motor to pay a engine disassembly of like $800 to see if "sludge" fried the motor. Ahhhhh the hole in the valve cover will give you 70% of the insight needed to 100% determine if it was owner abuse and I will give them $125 charge to fully pull the valve cover to get a full "story" of how the owner took car of their car with oil changes.

Then I think we have some "embellishing posts" or Canadian posts because toasted motors are not a common thing when you are talking BMW, Audi Lexus, and Toyota, So taking out a warranty for a viscosity issue with our MMWA laws, can be fought and I think won if the customer is smart enough to know the law, or by clearly bringing up the law. There so many dumb ars out there that spew bad warranty Dogma that the manufacture won't even spew and does not know their dumb ars dealerships are spewing. Redline and Amsoil see it come their way at times, rouge dealers with a chip. But always remeber here in the USA the manufacture has ti prove it was the oils problem and not the hair line crack in the rod bolt that let lose. It just is not worth their time to "prove it" when in SO SO SO MANY cases it is their fault. A materials flaw or a manufacturing flaw and THAT is what a warranty is for!!!! And they know it.

The MMWA is really a SMART LAW of common sense I think, it keeps the manufacture honest by law. And really you don't have a LL-01 spec oil, and a rod bolt lets lose because of a crack and they blame the oil? Yeh I can see it if someone used hydraulic oil. In the USA do you really see someone putting hydraulic oil in a BMW? That is why these dealers where my relatives work said they don't take samples, and SCREW the car buyer. Why when you have 10 motors a year, when clearly all 10 are basically manufacturing issues or just plain happen stance. Like the Audi guy said to me, these people flip cars every 5 to 7 years on average, a motor here and there we get back with their next car. We lose an Audi buyer for life, we just lost $100,000 plus

You state they are just are not going to roll over, what on their manufacturing problems. We ALL know modern synthetic oil is almost never never the problem and car manufactures know it, and MMWA keeps them somewhat honest by law. If you are anywhere else then the USA you are screwed. I guess we get screwed on the pharmaceutical prices here in the USA since we subsidies every other country with our inflated prices and anywhere else you get screwed on car warranty issues.
 
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I forgot to add, and it is kind of ironic I know, seeing I just rolled the dice on a new Hyundai, but about 1 year ago where my Hyundai had the new motor installed the dealer had 40 car/SUVs in their back lot getting new motors. On a Hyundai forum a certified Hyundai mechanic that is on the forums stated his dealership had 200 cars/SUVs sitting in back waiting for motors. He also stated their different car brand sister dealerships were installing Hyundai motors because the backlog was so great. How many Canada and other users got total screwed because Hyundai couldn't manufacture a motor correctly? If you knew about this problem in the USA and world wide, you would have some ammunition to bring to bear with Hyundai that NO, I am not paying for a new motor and NO you are not denying my warranty because it appears you don't know how to manufacture a long living motor to save your sole. And yes anywhere in the world THIS is what a warranty from a manufacture is used for. That's why you have spot checks on the production line of all parts to see they are to spec. You just don't make widgets 24/7 without fully checking all processes are being followed. If someone pulled a crankshaft and inspected the oiling holes for machining chips, they would of caught the the what? 250/500 million dollar mistakes. The same way I forgot to check my last post's spelling...Ha Ha. I am praying they finally got their crap together, so my motor is a long lived motor.

There are some rumors that some Hyundai motors that have thin connecting rods and heavy load and long term use finally takes out both the large and piston pin area, and it is not just crankshaft chips in the oil holes. More research is needed to know if it is credible or a false rumor. Here is where I will use the high viscosity oil that Hyundai allows to keep a thicker oil boundary layer with all the known issues of GDI/turbo and even worse GDI/turbo/short trips/long idles that I have. I do oil analysis on our air compressors at work through Polaris Labs. I have purchased a 10 pack kit to watch my fuel dilution in this motor because I am clearly in a worse case scenario, and I have learned through my work and catching a manufacturing problem/design issue on our rotary screws. Anything that runs oil that costs you big money, do some UAO's until you know everything is "normal" makes terrific sense. If I get it buttoned down fast I can use the pre bought tests for my other cars. Plus, I have documentation of oil changes over and above.
 
Yes, silicon is used as antifoam, but too much will cause foaming, so it needs to be balanced. May be ok, but that's the highest I've seen esp on a new unused sample.
 
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