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Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Garak] #4840535 08/15/18 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
A proper HDEO will be E7, E9, CJ-4 and CK-4.

Just for reference, all those specifications can be had in conjunction with E6.


Yes, in fact the Millers 5w30 is all three.

However I said E6 limits the P to 800 ppm, whereas E7 and E9 have a higher limit. I believe most E7 / E9 HDEOs have about 1000-1200 ppm of P.

Exclusion of E6 certification means it will have higher P which is what I was trying to say. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

Tikka,

These guys do emissions intact tuning for the OM642 here in the states. They may be able to program a tune for you that throttles or shuts off EGR flow. They do extensive testing and R&D on their software, more so than most aftermarket tuners. This will reduce engine wear and improve economy/performance of your vehicle.

http://www.greendieselengineering.com/Engine-Tune/1_31_-1_-1.action

Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: CleverUserName] #4840664 08/15/18 07:31 AM
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kschachn Offline
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Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
A proper HDEO will be E7, E9, CJ-4 and CK-4.

Just for reference, all those specifications can be had in conjunction with E6.

Yes, in fact the Millers 5w30 is all three.

The oil does not show up on any lists as having actual approvals, at least not that I could find. If it is indeed does not carry any of the approvals listed then that's one of the most deceptive SDS I've seen.

On some of their other literature the "approvals" are listed under a heading of "Performance Profile."


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 428K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Tikka] #4840670 08/15/18 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tikka
Hi CUN
MB 228.51 instead of 229.51?
This is readily available. http://www.millersoils.co.uk/source/datasheets/Trucksynth-EE-5w30.pdf

I have it serviced by jeep dealer who use the PETRONAS 229.51 C3 stuff. I may have to speak to them.

Tikka.

The oil does not appear on the list of MB approved oils for 228.51.


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 428K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: CleverUserName] #4841167 08/15/18 05:58 PM
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Garak Offline
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Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
However I said E6 limits the P to 800 ppm, whereas E7 and E9 have a higher limit. I believe most E7 / E9 HDEOs have about 1000-1200 ppm of P.

Exclusion of E6 certification means it will have higher P which is what I was trying to say. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

Yes. Well, technically, no E6 certification can still result in reduced phosphorus, in a 10w-30, 5w-30, or 0w-30 HDEO that is CK-4/SN. My real point in replying was where you said a "proper HDEO...." An E6 is a proper HDEO, and they often have a whack of builder approvals. I'm even using one of those lubes now. wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Tikka] #4843427 08/18/18 02:19 AM
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Tikka Online Content OP
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Hi
Thank you all very much for helping me.

Is it actually that important to have specific manufacturer approval rather than just meeting their specification?
Millers are well respected in UK and we have an account with them at work where we use their lubricants and coolants hence they are easy to acquire. Pretty much any Oil is available over here. The American ones are more expensive for obvious reasons.
Is there a good site where I can learn the meaning of all these E6,E7 CK-4/SN designations. They start to make my head spin after a while. Why is Phosphorous valuable etc.
Many thanks.
Tikka

Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Tikka] #4843458 08/18/18 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tikka
Hi
Thank you all very much for helping me.

Is it actually that important to have specific manufacturer approval rather than just meeting their specification?
Millers are well respected in UK and we have an account with them at work where we use their lubricants and coolants hence they are easy to acquire. Pretty much any Oil is available over here. The American ones are more expensive for obvious reasons.
Is there a good site where I can learn the meaning of all these E6,E7 CK-4/SN designations. They start to make my head spin after a while. Why is Phosphorous valuable etc.
Many thanks.
Tikka


Builder approvals usually cost money to get the certification.

Some boutique oils and oils from small blenders aren't actually certified due to the costs involved. It's not economically practical to get the approval so they use words like "complies" or "meets", however no formal approval actually exists.

The approval is required for warranty coverage if you have an oil related failure. Some oils, which do not have any formal approvals, could actually be superior to the one you are "supposed" to use. This is the heart of the controversy.

Phosphourus is a very effective anti wear additive. It exists in 99.9% of all engine oils in the form of ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates), usually combined with Molybdenum or Antimony for a synergistic effect. Some HDEOs have more P than others. It is proven and has been around for years, except it can poison a catalytic converter before the warranty expires if your engine has an oil consumption problem. As a result, the levels of P are being reduced in all oils over the last 15 years. I prefer > 1000 PPM of P, E6 lubes are limited to < 800 PPM.

CJ-4 and CK-4 are API diesel oil categories: https://www.api.org/products-and-service...el-c-categories

ACEA E7, E9 and E6 are European oil specifications: https://www.lubrizol.com/Lubricant-and-Fuel-Additives/Engine-Oil-Additives/ACEA/Sequences/ACEA-E6-16

Last edited by CleverUserName; 08/18/18 03:30 AM.
Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Tikka] #5196983 08/26/19 09:08 AM
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Tikka Online Content OP
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Originally Posted by Tikka
Hi
In another thread I said I was concerned about the many short journeys my Jeep made and its effect on the Oil so I had it tested.

I sent a sample of my Oil away for analysis. My analysis was not as comprehensive as your Blackstone ones but I will type in what I can and would welcome any comments. The company that did the analysis was Millers in UK. Not sure if you lads have heard of them.

Oil was in vehicle 6 months and covered 4000 miles. PETRONAS Syntium 5w/30

Density @ 15.5c (g/ml) 0.855
Viscocity @ 100c (cSt) 12.00 cSt

Calcium (%) 0.261
Zinc (%) 0.119

Wear Metals in ppm
Cr 1
Pb 0
Ni 1
Sn 0
B 60
Fe 28
Mo 5
Si 9
V 0
Al 4
Cu 2
Na 10

Analysis reveals Oil to be in good condition and suitable for further use. We would advise change at 12 months.( Millers comment)

Any comments from the Forum most welcome.




Hi Gents
I will add my next analysis to the above one and welcome any comments.
This UOA follows the above one by nine months and 5,000 miles.

Oil Type......Engine Oil
Product Name ......Petronus 5W-30
Mileage on this Oil ......5000
Appearance ......Black opaque

[email protected] (g/ml) 0,865
[email protected] (cSt) 12.06

Calcium (%) 0.154
Zinc (&) 0.092

Nitration No
Oxidation No
Fuel Dilation 0%
Soot 1.5%

WEAR METALS PPM
CR 1
PB 0
Ni 1
Sn 1
B 113
Fe 28
Mo 116
Si 12
V 0
Al 7
Cu 2
Na 4

Comments from Analyst......Cautionary soot levels. Satisfactory wear metals.


I did note how different the Moly and Boron levels were between the two samples. I suspect they may be different oils regardless of the Jeep dealer saying both times PETRONAS 5W-30 was used.

I would be grateful for any comments on all of the above.
Many thanks.

Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Tikka] #5197207 08/26/19 01:33 PM
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Rollins Offline
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Can you shed some more light on your driving habits?

Petronas Syntium has several versions in 5w-30 ,under 229.5 and MB 229.51;52 :

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevo...isten&suchbegriff=petronas%20syntium

The first UOA looks like being with 229.5 Syntium 5w-30, the second-with 229.51/52 .

I would look into the 1.5% soot content -it's on the high side for just 5000 miles. Ever checked or serviced the Fuel Injection system? How is the EGR ?
With this soot % I'd hate to push the OCI any further on a timing chain equipped small displacement engine and address the possible cause first.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122499

Since the engine lacks DPF ex-factory you have a wide range of oil choices - from HDEO's to ACEA C3 MB 229.51/52 .

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf

Some excellent 228.51 5w-30 oils are available in UK - among them Delvac 1 LE 5w-30; Shell Rimula R6LME 5w-30 ; Castrol (renamed again !) Vecton line of HDEO's etc. (the Delvac 1 LE was factory-fill in MB vans and R6LME is in MAN Euro 6 HD engines).

https://shell-livedocs.com/data/published/en/1cdfb4f4-18c7-4822-84b4-438bdb66932a.pdf

Millers product above is not on the official MB approval list (it's "meet or exceeds" situation, it may be a good product but I'd stick

to the major companies' products) .

Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Rollins] #5197971 08/27/19 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollins
Can you shed some more light on your driving habits?

Petronas Syntium has several versions in 5w-30 ,under 229.5 and MB 229.51;52 :

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevo...isten&suchbegriff=petronas%20syntium

The first UOA looks like being with 229.5 Syntium 5w-30, the second-with 229.51/52 .

I would look into the 1.5% soot content -it's on the high side for just 5000 miles. Ever checked or serviced the Fuel Injection system? How is the EGR ?
With this soot % I'd hate to push the OCI any further on a timing chain equipped small displacement engine and address the possible cause first.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122499


Since the engine lacks DPF ex-factory you have a wide range of oil choices - from HDEO's to ACEA C3 MB 229.51/52 .

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf

Some excellent 228.51 5w-30 oils are available in UK - among them Delvac 1 LE 5w-30; Shell Rimula R6LME 5w-30 ; Castrol (renamed again !) Vecton line of HDEO's etc. (the Delvac 1 LE was factory-fill in MB vans and R6LME is in MAN Euro 6 HD engines).

https://shell-livedocs.com/data/published/en/1cdfb4f4-18c7-4822-84b4-438bdb66932a.pdf

Millers product above is not on the official MB approval list (it's "meet or exceeds" situation, it may be a good product but I'd stick

to the major companies' products) .


Hi
My driving is mostly short journeys of just a few miles with the occasional long journey.

The oil shows no sign of fuel contamination and engine runs perfectly so I guess the injectors are fine.

Not sure about the EGR. Everything runs fine and I have no exhaust smoke. I always run Shell V Power Diesel too.

I would sincerely hope a Jeep main dealer would use an oil of the correct MB229.51 spec although the invoice just says PETRONAS Syntium 5w-30. Who knows what they do though.

I have had the Jeep serviced since the analysis so that dirty oil is out.

Thanks for the help.

Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: Tikka] #5199190 08/28/19 05:45 PM
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Hi Gents
Anyone any ideas as to why the large differences in the Boron and Moly readings in the two reports above? Seems odd to me. Are 'high' Boron and Moly a good or bad thing?

Thanks,

Tikka

Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: dnewton3] #5227004 09/30/19 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
Originally Posted by Tikka
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Fe is at 7ppm/1k miles.
I don't have a lot of data on this engine.
While not a great wear rate, it's acceptable and may well be "normal" for this engine series.


Hi
It is a Mercedes OM642 engine without dpf if that helps. What Fe would you like to see?

Tikka.

Like I said - I don't have substantial data on this engine series. Most engines I've seen shed 5ppm/1k miles or less. However there are some that tend to shed more; another example would be the little TDI engines from VW. You'll have to see if you can find macro data from many sources for this engine; I don't have any. You ask what I'd like to see? Whatever "normal" is. It just seems to me that 7ppm/1k is high; don't see that typically.

I have an OM642 that is supposed to go 10k oci's. Once I went 9500 on Mobil 15-40M and my test came back showing a 7ppm/1000mi iron level. The tbn was 2. I didn't like that so don't go over 7k oic's. The last uoa I did was at 7500 miles and it dropped to less than 6ppm per 1k. I did tow a motorcycle trailer during that run across the country. I've switched to Valvoline MST 5-40 so I need to test that oil. Started to believe that Mobil 1= high iron business.

Re: Oil Analysis on Jeep 3.0crd [Re: loneryder] #5227473 10/01/19 10:57 AM
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I misspoke. The Mobil 1 was 5-40 ESP.

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